You are in for a treat tonight, courtesy of a user named Gareth and his witty ways. This was originally compiled by ThirdWitness over at the E-Watchman Exposed boards, but I thought that it would be nice to dig it out and give it a little more life over here as well >:).
Dilbert joke (had to include this, sorry xD):
Ratbert sitting at a computer:
"I want to debate with people on the Internet but I worry that I'm not smart enough."
"Maybe I'll just read what the smart people are saying."
[after reading some posts]
"Okay, I'm in."
LOL
Opposer A
To all the brothers who read this, rather than elevating the opinions of any one individual the issue remains no matter how artfully the question is dodged: Does the Watchtower Society's leaders value unity over truth? Is not their record of disfellowshipping members who arrived at a "truth" prior to the leaders who later recognized that same "truth" on grounds of apostasy proof that unity is valued more than truth?
Gareth replies:
In my opinion you have over-simplified this situation to the point where information has been lost. The information that remains in this 'summery' presents a different view of the situation than the reality. This is what 'over-simplification' is. You make something very simple and compact but you do that at the expense of important facets that might lead some people to a different conclusion.
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DEFINITIONS
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Organization - group of people 'organized' to perform a given task.
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TRUTH
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First off I do not believe anyone of the GB has ever believed they have been in possession of the full truth. I am certain they have always believed they have had the most truth. The word 'truth' however has always been a euphemism for their teachings. Jesus referred to the teachings of scripture as 'The Truth'. As a euphemism 'The truth' is naturally applicable. So much so that all the denominations in Christendom use it too.
Language is like this. We all know that our understanding is limited and therefore not identical to that of Jesus Christ who originally coined the term. However that does not prevent us from using it in the full knowledge that it does not represent the same (identical) thing.
All use of language is like this. We all do this all the time. We do not notice because we change the context in which we use and understand our words so easily and so freely.
So 'The Truth' has never meant the 'The Truth' that Jesus taught. It has always been known to be a 'lesser' approximation. But it has always been assumed to be the 'best approximation we have.
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UNITY
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In any organization you have to have rules. Without rules you do not have organization (by definition). It is the rules that draw a circle around those who are a part of the organization and those who are not. No collection of rules is going to suit everybody within any given organization of individuals. However without them you have no organization. The line that separates a group of people as a cohesive 'unit' ceases to exist and 'unity' dissolves. So 'unity' is entirely dependant on rules.
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WBTS
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The basis of the 'rules' that defines the organization of the WBTS is 'The Truth'. Without adherence to 'The Truth' one can not be considered as being a part of the WBTS. This is its 'definition'. Without it you have no WBTS.
'The Truth' has never been seen as full or complete. However there is no choice but to use the 'Best Truth' we have in an effort to 'organize' people for a given purpose. With the WBTS this purpose is the teaching of 'The Truth'.
Now just because we understand that out view of 'The Truth' is not perfect this does not mean we should not preach our best understanding of it to others. Jesus commanded us to do so. Therefore we have no choice but to do this.
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TRUTH vs UNITY
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So in order to remain an 'organization' it must be decided at which point an individuals personal beliefs as to what 'The Truth' really is may be allowed to differ from that of the 'organization' of a whole.
There is a point beyond which the purposes of the individual are different enough from that of the organization as a whole due to their personal view of the organizational 'definition': their 'truth'.
As an example one might argue that the evidence in the Bible points to a triune God. Such a person might be willing to be tolerant of the views of the 'organization' that feels 'The Truth' points to a single God.
The organization, however, must make a decision. They must decide whether 'The Truth' according to the individual is similar enough to 'The Truth' to the best understanding of the organization. If it is not similar enough, then that individual 'by definition' is no longer an effective part of the 'organization'. Remember the 'organization' is a group of people who are 'organized' for a given purpose. When the purposes of the individual differ enough from the purpose of the 'organization,' they cease to be pursuing the same 'purpose'. They are no longer a part of the 'organization'.
Dis-fellowshipping is recognition of this actuality.
Now given the organization has always sought to improve its understanding of 'The Truth'. It has always sought to change its own view of 'The Truth' to more closely match 'The Truth' that was given to us through Jesus Christ.
Clearly this means that also the rules must change over time. It is inevitable, natural and beneficial that they do so. There is no option about this.
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LOST
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Clearly there will then be a group of individuals who discovered a 'Better Truth' before the organization. This will have lead to them falling outside the definition of what is required to belong to the organization. Eventually the organization then 'catches up' with these individuals with respect to understanding of the truth.
In this situation do we argue that the organization put UNITY above TRUTH?
Consider this: The organization was not in a position to verify that those individuals really did have a 'Better Truth'. Yet in order to remain an 'organization' they had to make the decision. They had to decide whether the 'Potentially Better Truth' was too different from 'The Truth' as best perceived by the organization. They had no choice about this. To have failed to do so would have been to fail to be an organization. That is tautology!
Consider this: Where is the MOST TRUTH lost? Is it lost by allowing the 'organization' of people directed to a given purpose to dissolve? Is the 'Most Truth' kept by allowing 'dis-unity' to fracture and separate those who are 'organized'? Or is the 'Most Truth' preserved by maintaining enough 'unity' to bind the individuals tightly enough and cohesively enough to maintain 'organizational functionality'?
So when you talk about TRUTH vs UNITY it could be argues that the pursuit of TRUTH is completely served by the pursuit of UNITY. This despite the fact that you can inevitably find cases where truth was lost. To dis-fellowship someone who later turns out to be historically correct is tragic. However all the precious 'truth' that would be lost by pursuing a course of dis-unity would likely be far more tragic.
More things Gareth said:
Now bearing in mind that the vast majority of people do not know Jehovah and desperately need to we have to wonder how on earth they are going to. Are they going to learn about Jehovah from the Roman Catholic Church? Are they going to learn about Jehovah from the Born Again Christians? Are they going to learn about Jehovah from the Buddhists or the Sikhs? Are they, perhaps going to learn about Jehovah from the Anarchists? Or the Atheists, the rappers or the street dudes? The politicians maybe? What about the television or the radio? Will they learn about Jehovah from those?
No.
There is only one place this huge and needy group of people are going to learn about Jehovah. That is through the Watchtower Bible and Tract society. Like it or not the WBTS is the ONLY hope for this vast body of mankind alienated from their creator.
The plain fact is there is NOBODY on the planet with anything like the resources of the WBTS for publishing the basic truths of the Bible and bringing people to a vital understanding of their creator.
The fact is the WBTS (like it or not) is bringing to bare an enormous amount of resource to this vital task of promoting the True Creator to the vast swathes of alienated mankind. Also they have taken for themselves Jehovah's name in a large way. No one else is promoting the name of Jehovah.
Do you think all this work is not extremely important to Jehovah? Do you genuinely believe that even a fraction of this could be achieved by an anarcho-syndicalistic-collective of individuals?
Opposer B
They are turning heads towards Jehovah's name, through themselves!
Gareth replied:
Are they turning heads towards Jehovah's name, through themselves? What of it? No one else is going to do it. And Jehovah clearly wants it done.
Opposer B
A personal relationship with our creator, with their consent. Remember that they say they are the faithful slave.
Gareth responded:
Well we will probable have to agree to differ on this one. Due to all that I have already said I actually do believe they are being very faithful. They are NOT perfect. Why does Jehovah even put up with them I wonder? I do not know. I do not even know why Jehovah puts up with me. But whatever the faults they are doing a very efficient job of promoting his divine name right at the point in history where it desperately needs to come out.
I am not saying there are not many in the organisation who will not meet with a negative Judgement (capital 'J'). I am sure there are those who will. What I am saying though is that the organisation 'as a whole' is doing the will of Jehovah to a very large extent. This is the ONLY organisation that even remotely comes close to being considered a 'slave' for Jehovah.
Warts and all I do believe that as Jehovah loves me and all my nasty failings, he also loves the 'organisation as a whole'. And by that I do not mean the legally incorporated printing companies or the buildings or the extra rules and the corrupt elders etc... I mean the people who call themselves by Jehovah's name. The legal stuff just keeps them tied together. Without it, in this hostile worldly climate, we would fall apart.
Opposer B
I'm sorry, I thought Jesus was our only hope.
Gareth replied:
Are you expecting Jesus to hand out 6 billion "The End of False Religion Is Near" tracts personally? And will he do this one by one or simultaneously?
Opposer A
There seems to have been the utter forgetting of the power of the holy spirit here among some. Not to mention prophecy.
Luke 19:40 But in reply he said: "I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out."
Gareth responded:
So why has Jehovah not caused the stones to cry out if Jehovah's Witnesses are doing such a terrible job?
Perhaps the holy spirit is working in ways that some do not expect or have failed to perceive...?
Opposer B
... "I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out."
Yes...Jehovah will accomplish his will, despite man, not because of him.
Gareth replied:
The question begs: What would you have us do? Would you disband WBTS and force Jehovah to use stones to accomplish his work?
Opposer C
The WTBTS would have people listen to them
Gareth: So would you prefer people listened to the Catholics? Or the Anglicans? Or the Born Again Christians? Or the Atheists? Or the New Agers? Or perhaps people can find spiritual comfort from Jehovah by turning to sex and drugs and all the trapping of escapism this world freely offers to people as a replacement for their spiritual needs.
Out of all the groups on earth which ones are talking about Jehovah? Which ones do you really think people will benefit from listening to the most?
Opposer A
Gareth You're being disingenuious with the above reply. You know very well my comment was in reply to your challenging question that Jesus wouldn't be able to do the work with out the society, and it's printing presses.
Gareth: Not at all. I have never said this. I do not believe it.
What I am saying is that the society, and it's printing presses are doing Jesus' work. I am not implying that Jesus could not do this by other means. I am saying that given that he obviously can do this by any means he chooses, he has obviously not seen the need to do so.
The WBTS are the ONLY group promoting Jehovah's name. This is an observation. This does not mean that Jesus needs them. Given that they are the ONLY group doing this and Jesus has clearly not called on any stones to cry out then logic leads me to conclude that Jesus is happy with what is being done with regards the spreading of 'the word'.........
what I am saying is that the organization is really doing it. If the WBTS disappeared tomorrow I think you are dreaming to think even a tiny fraction of the work they are doing to draw people to Jehovah will get done. Anarcho-syndicalistic-collectives do not work (IMHO).
Opposer D (linin em up and knock’n em down xD)
Thus, argument that there is none can we look to do the preaching work, save under the auspices of the WTBS, is just plain wrong.
Gareth: With all due respect, no one has postulated that argument on this thread. There are many that could do the preaching work. In my discourse, however, I have noted that no one is doing the preaching work. Save the WBTS. If the WBTS went away I do not believe random collections of people will do nearly so much. If they ever do, it will be because they have become very well organized just like the WBTS.
The bottom line is that when any 6 or more million people gather together in an organized group: There will be good and bad. Right and wrong. Hot and cold. Just like the nation of Israel that Jehovah tolerated to be his witness for so many centuries.
The fact is that given that Jehovah chooses to do his preaching work through humans and not angels, there will continue to be wickedness among the brotherhood. This will likely go on for approximately the greater part of the next 1000 years. I suspect we should try to get used to it!
Gareth: If you are telling me that if WBTS folded tomorrow the same number of people will hear about Jehovah than if the WBTS steamroller kept rolling then I think you are dreaming. That does not mean people could not do so if they wanted to. But the fact is they do not want to because they have not done so. Only WBTS have done so. Where are all the others? What other hopes do the uninitiated have?
Yes I know you will say "Jesus" or "Jehovah". But the fact is they have chosen to work through humans. Therefore the ONLY hope for those who de not know Jehovah is through humans.
Which are the humans who are preaching Jehovah? WBTS!
Opposer C
Second...
What do you say to the application of Amos 5:21 to the WT?
Gareth: Even if your theory about Amos 5:21 and WBTS is correct it would be wrong in my opinion to be disrespectful of the work of the WBTS. If you think Amos 5:21 has an application to WBTS then you are surely accepting that WBTS is the channel used by Jehovah.
My opinion in this matter is therefore to wait for Jehovah to tear down what Jehovah has built up. I, for my part, would never take it upon myself to work against what Jehovah has built up. Not even if I knew for certain that Jehovah had condemned it. King David did not do it. Jesus taught his disciples not to do it. But in this instance we do not even know for certain. It is just a theory.
Bottom line is I accept there are problems within WBTS. BUT I believe Jehovah has blessed them in the past and I, for my part, will not show disrespect for that fact.
I am happy to share criticism where criticism is due. However I will not be calling people who I have never met by names such as 'liars', 'evil', 'manipulating', 'wicked' etc... when I have never met them. ....
Gareth: If you have a logical response to what I have said then present it. Shoot down my arguments by all means. If you are resorting to shooting the messenger, however, what does that say about your reasoning?
If you read through this thread from the beginning you will find that I made a simple post expressing a positive view of a book published by WBTS. Everything else I have said is in direct response to the questions of other people. I am not pushing anything here. If you ask for my views I will give them.
Also, throughout this discourse I have merely expressed and re-expressed the same thought that I feel is logical. If Jehovah built something up. Let us not be too hasty in tearing it down. I, for my part, will not go there.
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