Collected Writings of ThirdWitness

As the title implies, everything to follow was originally written and created by ThirdWitness in various forum posts. I had no part in its creation whatsoever, aside from simply collecting the points, organizing them under various topical headings and removing the personal names.

Table of Contents

1. Most Important Teaching

2. Core Teachings

3. Sins of Christendom

4. What Jehovah’s Witnesses Were Doing Right

5. Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

6. Appointment of the FDS

7. Others That May Have Passed the Test?

8. Ultimate Question

9. Letter from the First Century

10. Watching and Waiting for Christ 

11. The Scriptural Refining

12. Process to Refine Gold

13. Correction of Teachings in Harmony with Prophecy

14. Refining of Individuals or Groups of People? 

15. Wrong Expectations/False Prophecies

16. Honesty and Openness about Past Mistakes

17. Intentionally Led Into Error/Blaming God?

18. Forced Unity?

19. World Magazine Controversy

20. Forced Belief in Untruths?

21. Ice Cream Truck

22. Deceptive Misconceptions about the Beliefs of JWs: Summation

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1. Most Important Teaching 

The scripture at Matt 24:45-47 is NOT the most important teaching in JWs' theology. You might recognize this claim as a page right out of the books of apostates themselves, whose erie obsession of attempting to discredit JWs have no bounds they continuously copy and paste this same claim over and over again. 

But the Nov 1, 1993 WT clearly shows them to be in error. Here it states: 

"Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching—who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one?"  

Yes the most important teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses is self explanatory since it is contained in the very name of the organization. The most important teaching being: Who is God?

2. Core Teachings 

[An opposer] wrote:

I think ThirdWitness is on the right track when he makes the core teachings of JW's the issue.

If the core teachings he keeps repeating are in fact true and JW's are the only one's teaching them then that would be a valid reason for becoming a JW rather than some other religion and that would be the case even if the Watchtower's teaching on being appointed over all of Christ's belongings in 1919 was false. If giving spiritual food at the right time was mainly focused on the core teachings of JW's and these core teachings are correct then the WTS is doing a good job.  

Wow look. Some honesty unlike many others who say that these truths do not matter.  

[The same opposer] wrote:

as I have pointed out many times on this thread, one can believe these basic Bible truths and not be allowed to get baptized as a JW. And a JW can be disfellowshipped as an apostate even if they believe these basic Bible truths. 

No dishonesty. And no ignoring of this. Of course there are Biblical laws to follow or else you will be removed from the congregation. Fornication, the most popular, also causing division which I suppose you are referring to. Thats in 1 Cor 5 and is scriptural. That’s just another identifying mark of God's people. They keep the congregation clean from practicing wrongdoers and apostates that would be detrimental to the spiritual health of those in the congregation.  

What proves he [Jesus] was with JW’s? The core doctrines they had.

How do you know Jesus is with you?

3. Sins of Christendom 

When Jesus inspected the religions claiming to be his temple shortly after 1914 what did he find? Of all the major so called Christian religions of the world that were supposed to represent him he found the following:

1. They had supported and encouraged their young men to kill one another during The Great War, even praying to God for his blessings upon the troops as they slaughtered one another.

2. They had misidentified him and his Father by misrepresenting them as a paganistic Triune God.

3. They had failed to sanctify his Father's name but instead removed His name from their Bibles and viewed His name as of little importance.

4. They had dishonored him by teaching that he was a sadistic God who would eternally torment the wicked in the fires of hell or purgatory, another belief borrowed from the pagans.

5. They had failed to promote God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind instead promoting their nationalistic governments in its place.

6. They had set up a paid clergy class that were to do the preaching thus making void Jesus' command for all his disciples to preach the good news of the kingdom. 

…And I will even make one final assumption for the sake of argument although I do not believe it. Lets assume that JWs would have failed the inspection in the early 1900s. At the future inspection who will Jesus recognize as the FDS and appoint over all the belongings?

Will it be the ones who teach that he is a triune god, tortures souls in the fires of hell, removes his Father's name from the Bible, denies the ransom by claiming that he did not die a man but rather a god/man, kills his fellow brother because he is of another race or nationality, has utter and complete disunity?

4. What Jehovah's Witnesses Were Doing Right 

But wait, there was one group who did not do these things. There was one group who was teaching that God's name was Jehovah and that the sanctification of His name was of utmost importance. That Jehovah was not Jesus nor a paganistic triune God and that there was no hellfire. This group did not join the nations in promoting their own governments over God's kingdom by killing their fellow man in the bloody war raging at that time, but instead preached that God's kingdom was mankind’s only hope and that it would restore paradise to the earth.

Of course they did not understand all things correctly but that was to be understood since they were trying to break free of the strongly entrenched pagan doctrines that Christendom had adopted thru the centuries. 

This group also had the potential for spreading the Kingdom message throughout the earth. Already this group had made great strides in doing so. 

One man in this group was Charles Taze Russell. His sermons printed in the newspaper are estimated to have had 12 million to 15 million readers in the US. One source said that he had become the most famous minister in the world at this time. His advertisement of free seats and no collection often angered the clergy because it would cause them to be questioned by their members and lose money.

The message he was bringing forth was so widespread that in 1908 his publications were the 3rd widely distributed publication only surpassed by of course the Bible and also the Chinese Almanac.

Even an enemy of C.T. Russell once declared that his writings had a "greater circulation every week than those of any other living man; a greater, doubtless, than the combined circulation of the writings of all the priests and preachers in North America..."

The voluntary distribution of religious literature in tract form grew until an annual distribution of approximately fifty million free tracts, in thirty languages, was reached, greater than that of all denominations and religious bodies in the world combined at the time.

Brother Russell's personal ministry beat all worlds records; the Pilgrim visitation likewise broke all records; so did the free tract distribution, the Photo drama, and the local ministry throughout the world.

Which group do you think Jesus would choose to do the great preaching of the good news of the kingdom that needed to be done to fulfill the prophecies? Who would you have chosen if you were Jesus? Would you choose Christendom who could not even correctly identify you and your Father, who gave no importance to your Father's name, who dishonored your Father by teaching the paganistic hellfire and purgatory and the trinity, and sanctioned the shedding of blood promoting nationalism over God's kingdom not even knowing what God's kingdom was? 

Or this group that identified your Father as being Jehovah thus following your example when you said,’ I have made your name known and will make it known'. This group that showed from the Bible that Jehovah is not a triune God, and not a sadistic tormentor of souls. This group that correctly identified you as God's son who sacrificed your life as a perfect man. This group that refused to promote nationalism and kill fellow man because they were of a different race or nationality and who recognized and preached God's kingdom as the only hope? This group who had demonstrated the potential to preach the truth about God, Jesus, and God's Kingdom worldwide in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14? 

…And they have no answer to the fact that JWs are the only ones preaching the truth about Jehovah, Jesus, and the Kingdom in worldwide unity. Their only alternative is to return to the false pagan teachings of false religion. But they will try to hide that because when they admit that their influence over the weak is diminished greatly.

5. Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave? 

So who really is the faithful and discreet slave? Where can the slave class be found? 

All one has to do is ask a few simple questions: Who has been instrumental in helping us to learn the marvelous truths of the Bible about God’s name, the trinity, hellfire, paradise earth, God’s kingdom, and so on? Who is currently preaching the good news of the Kingdom throughout the earth following the example of Jesus and the first century Christians? Who has been used by Jehovah in building a worldwide and united brotherhood? Who has Jehovah used in providing us with so much spiritual food that it is difficult to even keep up with it all? When you have a Bible question, what publications do you turn to in order to find the answer? (Have you ever noticed that even apostates turn to the Insight book when wanting to find out certain facts about the Bible? Why? Because they have no better Bible source.) 

It is quite apparent to all who are honest with themselves and others that the faithful and discreet slave is found only among the people known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. 

… the real Jesus does unite. The only begotten son of God unites his people. The Jesus who gave his life as a perfect man, not a god-man, has a united people who spread the truth about his sacrifice worldwide. The real true Jesus who is not part of some mystic God-head has a people exposing this false pagan doctrine for what it truly is, a teaching of demons. The Jesus who taught love for fellow man has a united people who does not slaughter one another in war. The Jesus who is King of God's Kingdom has subjects who tell others how this heavenly government will restore mankind to perfection in paradise. The Jesus who made known God's name and said he would continue to make it known has a united people making that Name known worldwide. The Jesus that does not burn souls in hellfire for all eternity, has a united people freed from such cruel and sadistic teachings. 

…Did Jesus really expect men perfect in knowledge when he arrived?

3W has plainly shown *from the Bible* that Jesus could NOT have had that expectation of his slave.

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He did not expect it in the first century when he made the appointment to provide food for his sheep. Why would he then expect it 2000 years later against all Bible prophecy? Of course he would not expect perfection from his appointed slave.

In fact when he originally appointed the slave to feed his sheep, Jesus made it clear that a key qualification was that they LOVE him. Not that they were 'perfect in knowledge'. But that they LOVED him.

John 21:15-17

15 When, now, they had breakfasted, Jesus said to Simon Peter: “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Feed my lambs.” 16 Again he said to him, a second time: “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him: “Yes, Lord, you know I have affection for you.” He said to him: “Shepherd my little sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time: “Simon son of John, do you have affection for me?” Peter became grieved that he said to him the third time: “Do you have affection for me?” So he said to him: “Lord, you know all things; you are aware that I have affection for you.” Jesus said to him: “Feed my little sheep.

I think 3W made it quite clear who LOVED Jesus most at the time of the appointment 'over all his belongings'. Those who did not teach young Christians to engage in nationalistic warfare, following after the rider on the red horse...

Those who knew his Father's name: "Jehovah" and how important it was.

Those who knew Jesus to be distinct and separate from Jehovah. Not part of a pagan-styled deity in three (yet only one) but yet three.

Clearly those bearing witness to the sovereignty of Jehovah and to the rightful rule of His Christ Jesus.

As one reader so elegantly put it:

“We can be thankful that Christ and Jehovah look at hearts, not brains. As Ps 7:9 says: "And may you [God] establish the righteous one; And God as righteous is testing out heart and kidneys." Even King David prayed that God read his heart and refine it. (Ps 26:2) And as Jeremiah said: "Jehovah of armies is judging with righteousness; he is examining the kidneys and the heart." (Jer 11:20) Jehovah confirmed this in Jeremiah 17:10-"I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings." Similarly, Jesus says in Revelation 2:23-"all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds." Jesus even condemned ones for not expressing "justice and mercy and faithfulness"-conditions of the heart. (Mt 23:23)

So when Jesus appointed the "faithful and discreet slave" (Mt 24:45-7) "over all his belongings", he was not primarily looking at the brain. Rather, he was "examining the kidneys and the heart". The ones that proved faithful to him he could use, for these demonstrated that they were *teachable and leadable*. That's why "the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established" (Pr 4:18 ). They demonstrate that their heart is in a teachable condition so they can learn greater light from the Bible.

Agape,

~” 

An opposer wrote:

He said,“It seemed that everything ALWAYS comes back to the question:“Is the Society and it’s leadership the ‘faithful and discreet slave?” 

Agreed 100 percent. That is the question. Is the FDS found among JWs? If Yes, then listen to them. If NO, then do your own thing. But the premise that if the FDS was not appointed over all the earthly belongings in 1919 then they cannot be God's people is false. Whether that particular appointment happened in 1919 or not does not stop a person from identifying who the FDS is today. Just ask: Who today is providing the spiritual food at the proper time and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and all that it entails worldwide?” 

“If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is of the utmost importance, and God's kingdom will restore paradise, and the sacrifice of Jesus was as a man, not god/man, and the preaching of this good news and all that it entails must be done worldwide, etc etc, then where only can the FDS be found and who only can be God's organization?

I readily admit that if JWs are wrong on those most important issues, then they are not God's organization and the FDS is not found among Jehovah's Witnesses.

[The same opposer] wrote:

...it was just that he (Russell) did a better job of publishing them (Bible truths) than anyone else.  

[The opposer] perhaps thinks that this fact would be unimportant to Jesus. I wonder if it would be unimportant to Jesus that his organization do a 'better job' than all others at publishing Bible truths? Let me think for a minute. Oh yes, Jesus did say, "This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in ALL THE INHABITED EARTH for a witness TO ALL THE NATIONS and then the END WILL COME". 

Russell's sermons printed in the newspaper are estimated to have had 12 million to 15 million readers in the US. One source said that he had become the most famous minister in the world at this time. The message he was bringing forth was so widespread that in 1908 his publications were the 3rd widely distributed publication only surpassed by of course the Bible and also the Chinese Almanac. 

I wonder if Jesus noticed this. And I wonder if Jesus would have noticed what even Russell's enemies noticed. One such enemy of C.T. Russell once declared that his writings had a "greater circulation every week than those of any other living man; a greater, doubtless, than the combined circulation of the writings of all the priests and preachers in North America..."

 It only seems logical to me that Jesus would want his organization to have the capacity and the potential to preach this good new in ALL the inhabited earth better than anyone else since it would be a life saving work that needed to be preached worldwide before the end came. So even if it were true that other religions taught ALL the same truths as JWs it surely seems it would be a factor that they were not publishing these truths to the extent that JWs were.

Now some will say that all they did was publish books and written material and that is not what Christ wanted. But I can't help but look at the example that his Father set for us. Jehovah sure seemed to think that the best way to get his message out to people was in written form. Thus we have God's word the Bible in written form. I know of no better example to follow than that of the Most High God. And it is also noteworthy that the Bible is the most widespread book in all the world. And what a coincidence that the WT publications are also the most widespread relgious books that explain the Bible in all the world.

Maybe, just maybe, Jesus did recognize his organization as JWs. And maybe, just maybe, he has directed them to preach the good news of the Kingdom and all the truth that it entails worldwide. No other religion is teaching these truths worldwide, are they? Perhaps you [the opposer] can enlighten us as to who is.

So lets assume that there were other religions teaching ALL the same truths as JWs in 1914 (which has not been proven). And we have to make an educated guess as to which one was Jehovah's organization. I know of no other way but to look and see which one was doing the best job at publicizing these truths at the time and even on into the future since it was Jesus that said that this good news would be preached in all the inhabited earth and THEN THE END WOULD COME. Therefore it only seems logical to me that we would try to find the organization that is preaching all these truths worldwide right up until the end comes not just the one or ones doing it in the early 1900s.

Do you know a better way to recognize who God's organization is, than what Jesus said they would be doing before the End came? The proof is in the results of what has taken place not only around 1914, but also in the years thereafter, wouldn't you agree?

 6. Appointment of the FDS 

They were not appointed at that time [1919] to be God's organization. You see the FDS was appointed way back in the first century. And the anointed ones providing the food at the proper time was the faithful and discreet slave. And so the quote: "When Christ inspected the 'slave' in 1918, he found those ANOINTED ONES on earth to be faithful in providing spiritual 'food at the proper time.' Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them 'over all his belongings.'"

There was no appointment of the FDS in 1918. The FDS were already appointed. And the Bible Students later called JWs proved that they were those anointed ones, the FDS. How? By providing the food at the proper time.

How was that the proper time? Because Bible truths had been clouded by the great apostasy in Christendom. The Trinity, hellfire, God's Kingdom being merely in your heart, the sacrifice of Jesus as a god/man, the removal of God's name from the Bible and lowering it to of no importance, a paid clergy class, all these teachings needed to be exposed as false. It was the needed food at the time and JWs did just that proving that they were the FDS.

Then came the appointment of all the earthly belongings because they were, sure enough, providing the food at the proper time. Which means nothing more than that they were appointed over the increase that they themselves were contributing to by the preaching and exposing of the basic false doctrines of Christendom.

All the earthly belongings that the slave has been appointed over are those same belongings that the slave increased for the master by being faithful to his appointment to preach the good news and to feed the body of servants or domestics. The faithful slave is merely following the example of the early Christian congregation in faithfully carrying out the preaching of the good news. The result of which has been an increase in the master's belongings and more responsibility is thus given to the faithful and discreet slave because of this increase.

Yes, the slave is in charge of all those earthly belongings of the master because he has proven himself faithful in taking care of and increasing the master's belongings in the first place. 

…JWs would still be Jehovah's organization without the appointment over all the belongings because they are the ones who are providing the food at the proper time and exposing the pagan doctrines of Christendom. The FDS is found only among JWs. 

Question: "If the Society did not prove to be Jehovah’s faithful and discreet slave in 1918-1919, do you feel that it would still be his organization today anyway?"

Yes. Here is why.

Lets assume that the FDS was not appointed over all the earthly belongings in 1919. Lets assume that there was no inspection in 1919. Then what?

The reality is that even if the faithful and discreet slave has not yet been appointed over all of the master's belongings he has still been appointed to provide the food. It is really only a matter of quibbling over a word or phrase and its perceived interpretation. The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have only been appointed over the earthly belongings of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought. So whether or not the faithful slave has been appointed over all the belongings as of yet as interpreted by someone else really changes nothing from our standpoint. We still are under obligation to find that faithful and discreet slave that has increased the master's belongings and take in the food that is provided if we want to be sustained.

…JWs do not believe that they received authority from Christ in 1919 to give the proper food as the faithful and discreet slave.

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..." 

Matt 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

The authority to provide the food at the proper time was given to the FDS long before 1919? Jesus tells us that at some later date the FDS would receive even more authority. [The opposer] apparently believes that if the FDS, found among JWs, did not receive that extra authority in 1919 then they have no authority today and therefore cannot be God's people. Clearly he has blundered.

Even if the extra authority was not given in 1919 and that authority is yet future, this does not change the fact that the FDS was given authority to give the food at the proper time. So the question is not whether the FDS, found only among JWs, received the extra authority in 1919 but rather are JWs providing the food at the proper time as the FDS was authorized to do thus proving themselves to be God's people.

His captive of concepts is actually based on a misconception of what JWs believe leaving him a captive of his own misconcepts. 

WT 12-15-71 

“8 Before Jesus Christ the Lord left by ascending to heaven, he gathered together his faithful disciples, including his loyal apostles. On the day of Pentecost following his ascension back to his heavenly Father, Jesus received and poured out the holy spirit on his disciples gathered together at Jerusalem, and thereby he appointed this “slave” class, this “steward” class, to give to his “domestics,” his “body of attendants,” spiritual food,“their measure of food supplies at the proper time.” The slave class proceeded to do so.”

Question on paragraph 8: “8. When … did Jesus appoint this “steward” or “slave” class,…?”

Answer from the paragraph: “On the day of Pentecost following his ascension back to his heavenly Father.”

Lets now move to paragraph 10.

“10 The facts of modern history show that in the year 1919 he revived these much afflicted disciples and gathered them together in a united body. Then he appointed them as his “slave” class “over all his belongings,” that is, over all his royal interests at the earth.(Rev. 11:7-12)…” 

Question on paragraph 10. “What appointment did he make respecting that faithful “slave” class in 1919,…?"

The answer is not, he appointed him as the faithful and discreet slave. That would make no sense because paragraph 8 showed the FDS already appointed and within the question on paragraph 10 is the phrase ‘that faithful slave class’. If the paragraph was saying that they were appointed as the FDS in 1919 then the question would have been: When were these Bible Students appointed as the FDS. The answer is to paragraph 10 is: he appointed them over all his belongings on earth (not he appointed them as the faithful and discreet slave).

Did the anointed Christians in the first century organization of God get an appointment by Christ over 'all his belongings'? How could they? The master had not yet arrived in the end of days after a long absence as prophecied. Therefore, since they had no appointment over all the master's belonging then using [the opposer’s] reasoning they could not be God's organization and did not have any authority as such. Of course, anyone will recognize that claim as totally absurd. Yet that is the only conclusion we can reach using his reasoning. No appointment over 'all the belongings' thus no authority as God's organization and the FDS.

But does this reasoning coincide with Scripture? 

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..."

Matt 24:45 "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

Matt 28:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations..."

2 Cor 5:20 The anointed are "ambassadors substituting for Christ". (Sure seems like there would be a lot of authority in being ambassadors of Jesus in his absence.) 

Even if the extra authority was not given in 1919 and that authority is yet future, this does not change the fact that the FDS was given authority to give the food at the proper time, to act as ambassadors for Christ, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom. So the question is not whether the FDS, found only among JWs, received the extra authority in 1919 but rather are JWs providing the food at the proper time and preaching the good news as the FDS was authorized to do thus proving themselves to be God's people. Yes, the FDS have at least as much authority today or in the early 1900s, as they did in the first century. They were given that authority by the master when he left the earth. 

The November 1, 1984 wt states:  

"However, the apostle Paul introduced new ones into more than merely a local congregation. He said to the Ephesians:“One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called.”(Ephesians 4:4) There was only one “body” worldwide, not a number of scattered, locally independent congregations. Jesus was also referring to the living members of this “body” on earth when he spoke of a “faithful and discreet slave,” authorized to ‘feed’ the “domestics.”(Matthew 24:45-47) Individual Christians worldwide would have to recognize the AUTHORITY of this “slave” if they were to be ‘fed’ by it. This would result in an international association of Christians." 

March 15, 1990 WT:  

"5 When did Jesus assign others to look after his belongings? This occurred after his resurrection. In his familiar words found at Matthew 28:19, 20, Christ first gave those who would become part of his composite house manager an extended assignment to teach and make disciples. By individually witnessing “to the most distant part of the earth,” the attendants would expand the missionary field that Jesus had begun to cultivate during his earthly ministry. (Acts 1:8) This involved their acting as “ambassadors substituting for Christ.” As “stewards of sacred secrets of God,” they would make disciples and would dispense spiritual food to them.—2 Corinthians 5:20; 1 Corinthians 4:1, 2. 

Did the FDS have authority before an appointment over 'all the belongings'. According to the Bible they did. And according to the WT publications they did. [The opposer] should have said: "And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority (over all the belongings) at THAT time, they would still have authority at THIS time (as the FDS)." 

“The fact is that whether or not the faithful and discreet slave found among Jehovah's Witnesses was appointed 'over all his belongings' or not really has no bearing on the authority of God's organization or the faithful and discreet slave.” 

“Let me say it once again, According to the Bible, the authority of the FDS as God's people does not depend on an appointment over all the earthly belongings in 1919.” 

Another brother wrote: 

....Lastly the FDS received its appointment in the first century and has existed down through the great apostasy. whether they passed in 1919 is not crucial in the minds of many JW, and the presentations as to whether they passed this expectation or not is based on the individual's own level of expectation. If [you] and other [opposers] feel that they didn’t pass the inspection then that is fine, but don’t get all upset when we don’t agree with you.

All it says is that the FDS would be "faithful in many things" and discreet. Past that any expectations you think that Jesus was looking for is your own guess at what Jesus would expect. You don’t really know because scripture isn’t that specific. So your expectations are just as valid as min or 3W’s since we really don’t know what Jesus was looking for other than to be "faithful in all things" and discreet.  

To me the evidence of this is the core doctrines being discovered and taught, and developed at that time that differentiate the JW from others.

 7. Others Who May Have Passed the Test?

One simple question, where are those ones now teaching the truth and exposing the false doctrines such as the Trinity, hellfire, the unimportance of God's name, the Kingdom in your heart only, etc etc?

Please direct us to this faithful and discreet slave who are providing the food and conducting their worldwide preaching of this good news and all that it entails. 

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I have examined page 622 of the Proclaimers book and I have failed to find where the WTS has acknowledged on that page that they were 'not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.' Perhaps [the opposer] would be so kind as to show us where this is written on page 622 in the Proclaimers book. The closest thing to that that I have found is this quote: 

"Many of Christendom’s scholars, too, know that these doctrines are not taught in the Bible, but that is not generally what their preachers say from the pulpits." 

and this quote: 

"Other Bible scholars had likewise perceived SOME of these things and had advocated them." 

So unless scholars make up a religion unto themselves, for example The First Church of Scholars or The Scholarly Church of Christ, then that is no basis for saying that JWs were 'not the only religions who taught the same things.' And even if scholars were a religion unto themselves that certainly does not mean that they taught ALL the same Biblically proven truths that Russell and the Bible students taught. 

It surely seems like more deceit on the part of [this oppose] and a mischaracterization of what page 622 says. And it is surely ironic that while trying to prove the WTS to be deceptive he himself engages in deception. But perhaps I am wrong and [he] will show us where the Society said in the Proclaimers book on page 622 that JWs were "not the only religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters." 

[A different opposer] wrote:

The Christadelphians, for example, were formed in the 19th century, and their teachings are very similar to those of the Watchtower. 

My reply:

Seems the Christadelphians did not believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence. Seems they also have not preached the good new of the Kindom worldwide having only 50,000 members at this time. I would just take an educated guess based on this and say that they are not preaching this good news of the kingdom worldwide. But perhaps I am wrong.  

Wait. There is a knock at my door. I think it is a Christadelphian. No, my bad. Just one of those pesty old Jehovah's Witnesses.  

If the Christadelphians are God's organization they have done a very poor job thus far of fulfilling Matthew 24:14. I have never had one contact me nor anyone I have ever talked to about it in my entire life. Maybe Jesus makes poor decisions? Or more likely they were not the ones that Jesus recognized as his people since they were not doing the best job at preaching this good news worldwide and did not have the capacity and potential to preach this good new worldwide. 

[The opposer] wrote:

But there were the ...Seventh-Day Adventists...  

Seems you, [opposer], are eager to believe whatever anyone tells you that may back up your point without doing any research on your own. I just have to wonder why that is. Do you care about truth at all or just promoting your book based on deception and misinformation. When I went to the 7th Day Adventist site the first thing I saw was this quote:  

"Seventh-day Adventists believe that Jesus is one of the three persons, called the Trinity, who make up our one God. " 

Hmmmm. So much for the 7th Day Adventist teaching the basic Bible truths that Russell recognized. I would suggest a little research on your part next time before making such a committment or before writing a book for that matter. But you seem to be not much on research at all. You certainly have shown that you do not even know JWs beliefs at all although you claim you were a JW for some years. What gives?

 [The opposer] wrote:

I have also referred to page 45 under that heading “Influence of Others” where it explains how Russell needed help from others ...On the top of page 46 it says,“(George Storrs) had a strong, positive influence on young Charles t. Russell.”

Then of course there was Nelson Barbour  

Please correct me if I am wrong but I was not aware that George Storrs or Nelson Barbour or any of these individuals that helped Russell learn the basic Bible truths make up 'religions who taught the same things the Society was teaching on such matters.' Maybe you can show me in the Proclaimers book on page 622 where I am wrong about that. Are these individuals consider 'religions'? 

[Yet another opposer] wrote:

There are many religions which have some of the WT teachings emphasized. Mormons don't believe Christ is the Father. They don't believe in Hell. They believe God is in some other part of the universe (not the Pleiades, somewhere else). The Armstrong people taught MUCH of what you now do, though they have backed off from a lot of it. So what?. 

So this is the names of the religions you came up with that teach ALL the same basic truths that JWs teach.

The Mormons who believe that Jehovah in the old testament is Jesus in the New Testament. Hmmm Seems to be another failed attempt.

Worldwide Church of God that have reverted back to the pagan Trinity teaching. Hmmm. Another failed attempt.

So [June], are you admitting that you cannot name a religion that teaches all the basic doctrines that JWs taught in 1914? And in addition, you cannot name a religion that teaches those basic Bible truths to the extent that JWs do worldwide?

Who will step forward and support [the opposer’s] contention that he said is in the Proclaimers book but that really does not seem to be there at all? That there were other relgions teaching ALL the basic Bible truths that JWs were teaching.

8. Ultimate Question 

If the Trinity is false, and hellfire is false, and God's name is important and must be sanctified, and worldwide unity is a must for God's people, and nationalistic killing is condemned by God, and God's kingdom is not something in your heart but a real government that will restore earthly paradise, and Jesus did not sacrifice his life as a god/man but rather as a perfect man, then are Jehovah's Witnesses God's organization? If not then who is?

1. Fact: God is not a Trinity. JWs teach the Biblical truth about the Trinity, thus worshiping the only true God, and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's teach and worship the god-dishonoring pagan and demon-inspired Trinity. [Opposers] says it doesn't matter.

2. Fact: Hellfire is a lie. JWs teach the Biblical truth about hellfire and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's worship the god-dishonoring sadistic and cruel god of the pagans. [Opposers] say it doesn't matter.

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3. Fact: God's name Jehovah is of the utmost importance and should be proclaimed far and wide and sanctified. JWs teach the Biblical truth about God's name and preach that truth worldwide, even calling themselves JEHOVAH'S witnesses. All other worldwide religion's see no importance in His name, some even removing the name from God's own word. [Opposers] say it doesn’t matter.

4. Fact: God's kingdom in the hands of Jesus will restore earth to a paradise. JWs teach the Biblical truth about God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religion's claim the kingdom is in your heart, the earth will be burned up, or some other similar teaching. [Opposers] say it doesn't matter.

5. Fact: Jesus gave his life as a ransom as a perfect man not a god/man. JWs teach the Biblical truth about Jesus and the ransom and preach that truth worldwide. All other worldwide religions point to a false Jesus that did not really provide a ransom since it was not an 'eye for an eye' but rather a god/man for a man, thus there is really no salvation since the ransom was not really paid. [Opposers] say it doesn't matter.

6. Fact: this good news of the Kingdom and all of the above must unitedly be preached worldwide. JWs teach and preach these Biblical truths unitedly worldwide. No other religion on the face of the earth does that. Even within their own religion they are disunited, sometimes even killing one another in times of war. [Opposers] say it doesn’t matter

7. Fact: Jesus said a faithful and discreet slave would provide the food at the proper time. Only JWs are providing that food as shown above worldwide.

9. Sarcastic Letter from the First Century (Opposer’s Viewpoint) 

Greetings brother,

One of the things I noticed about your point of view is that you base your belief that the Way IS Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE Way IS TEACHING 70 years after our Saviour's death (present tense). But I base my belief that the Way ISN’T Jehovah’s organization ON WHAT THE Way WAS TEACHING and how those leaders of the Way were acting DOWN TILL the death of our Lord (past tense).

According to the apostle' interpretation, Christ was going to return and set up his kingdom right there on earth after his ressurection. Then when Christ did not take rule of Jerusalem immediately after his ressurection, according to the apostles' understanding, John would still be alive when Christ's rulership took full sway.

Not only that the apostles argued among themselves, each wanting prominence, and even denied the Lord at the time of his death, thus proving themselves to be cowardly.

The apostles' then claim that "When Christ 'poured out holy spirit' there at Pentecost in the year Christ died, he found those disciples there gathered in Jerusalem to be faithful. Hence, Jesus, the Master, was pleased thereafter to appoint them as his faithful and discreet slave, as his organization, as his people, yes even pour out holy spirit upon them. And this just a few short days after they argued who was the greatest and denied Jesus and showed their faithlessness.

I notice that the date that they claim holy spirit was poured out is in the year that our Lord died, not here some years after the death of the last apostle John. So how could they possibly have received holy spirit at that time with their grasping for prominence, their wrong understanding, and their cowardly faithlessness toward the Lord himself? Why would Jesus choose ones as the faithful and discreet slave who had shown such faithlessness and indiscreetness only a few days earlier?

As a result I view your "God's organization" as just an illusion that exists only in your mind. But you view me as being deliberately dishonest, which displays my “lack of love for truth.” That’s OK since I try not to take anything you say personally.

As to whether or not the Way is Jehovah’s organization, I’m afraid that as long as we base our decisions from different STARTING points (me: in the year our Lord died and you: now) we will not be able help each other reach the same ENDING point.

Salutations, 

Donicles

Lord: Why didn't you listen to my faithful and discreet slave. You knew they had the teachings correct about who I was and who my son was, about hellfire, and the trinity, war, and brotherhood, the kingdom and paradise, why didn't you join them in proclaiming this good news.

Opposer: "I...based my decision on what the organization had been teaching and doing down till 1919...no matter what they are teaching today..."

Now lets imagine living in the first century.

Lord: Why didn't you listen to my faithful and discreet slave....why didn't you join them in proclaiming this good news?

Opposer: "I...based my decision on what the organization had been teaching and doing down till 33CE.... They were teaching that Jesus' would set up the kingdom in their day right there in Jerusalem, or at least he would return before John died. And they had disowned Christ and showed their faithlessness at the time of his death. I thus stayed away from that "religion no matter what they were teaching" at a later time or after 33CE.

Its very illogical reasoning.

10. Watching and Waiting for Christ?

More misleading information. IN 1880 the March WT said,“‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.” (end of quote). So yes those Bible students were watching for Jesus and his kingdom. No, not for Christ's invisible presence to begin but rather for the Kingdom to take full sway over the earth.

And so this statement in that 1984 WT: "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." is true. And the WT is merely saying this: When Christ's invisible presence began in 1914 (as we now know), those JWs were indeed watching for the Christ to return (in full kingdom power) as the 1880 WT showed. Yes they were indeed watching but expected much more than what happened. 

That is why the very next article in that Dec 1, 1984 WT states: "True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert." 

…"3W, I also noticed [that this opposer] conveniently failed to mention that the WT qualified that statement “"And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." In the very same magazine. 

IN 1880 the March WT said, “‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”(end of quote). So yes those Bible students were watching for Jesus and his kingdom. No not for Christ's invisible presence to begin but rather for the Kingdom to take full sway over the earth.

And so this statement in that 1984 WT: "And so when Christ's invisible presence began in 1914, happy were those (Witnesses) to have been found watching." is true. And the WT is merely saying this: When Christ's invisible presence began in 1914 (as we now know), those JWs were indeed watching for the Christ to return (in full kingdom power) as the 1880 WT showed. Yes they were indeed watching but expected much more than what happened.

That is why the very next article in that Dec 1, 1984 WT states: 

"True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert."

The first quote: "So when Christ’s invisible presence began in 1914, happy were these Christians to have been found watching!" is specifically found on page 14, the last paragraph of the study article. The subject then continued in the very next article.

The qualifying quote in the next article came on paragraph 9: 

"True, the Bible students who wrote those articles did not, at that time, enjoy the precise Biblical and historical understanding of what the end of those “appointed times of the nations” would actually mean, as we understand these things today. But the important point is that they were “on the watch” and helped to keep fellow Christians spiritually alert." 

The opposer wrote:

Since they believed that Jesus had returned in 1874 it means that they were not watching for his return in 1914.

Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that they were the only religion that was watching for his return in that year.

Does the opposer here speak truth or is it just an outright lie? Were JWs looking for Christ's return in 1914 or not?  

March 1880 WT:  

‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):

“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles." 

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:

“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Same WT:

"October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign." 

"At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom." 

Let me simplify this:

 [Opposer]: "they (JWs) were not watching for his (Jesus) return in 1914."

Oct 1913 WT:

"October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign

[Opposer], are you a liar?

[Opposer] wrote: "... they (JWs) were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

Oct, 1913 WT:

 "At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

[Opposer] wrote:

Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914. 

Lie or truth? Lets see.

Feb 15, 1915 WT:

"We believe that the Times of the Gentiles ended just on time, as shown in Volume II. of STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES....We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914." 

Remember the Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922. Brother Rutherford gave this famous speech. I'm sure you've heard of it before.

"... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns. He has cleansed the lips of the temple class and sends them forth with the message. The importance of the message of the kingdom cannot be overstated. It is the message of all messages....

Do you believe it?...

Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God!... The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.”

Published in 1921, HARP OF GOD, PAGE 243:

"The period of the Gentiles is 2,520 years and ended in the autumn of 1914....At that time he must become active: "The Lord [Jehovah] shall send [forth] the rod [sceptre of authority] of thy strength out of Zion [saying]: Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110:2) Jesus himself testified that the end of the Gentile times would mark the time for him to begin the exercise of his regal authority. Then the nations would become angry and a great world war would follow.— Revelation 11:17,18; Matthew 24: 7,8." 

PAGE 244:

"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914. The evidence is quite conclusive that here the Lord Jesus Christ, in obedience to God's command, stood up and began to exercise his power.(Daniel 12:1; Psalm 110:1,2; Revelation 11:17,18; Matthew 24:7, 8" 

Simplified:

[Opposer] wrote:

Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

Feb 15, 1915 WT:

"We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914." 

Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922, Brother Rutherford stated: 

“... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns."

HARP OF GOD, 1921, PAGE 244: 

"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914...the Lord Jesus Christ,...stood up and began to exercise his power." 

[Opposer] wrote:

I suspect that the first thing Jesus would notice is that there is not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return because they believe he already returned 93 years ago. And yet Jesus said that they would be 'happy" only if "on arriving he found them watching for his return.'- Luke 12:36,37

Really, not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return?

Proclaimers book page 716:

"The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind." 

KM July, 1995:

"Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance." 

Oct 1, 1978 WT:

"Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment." 

Again simplified: 

Proclaimers book page 716:

 “The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind.” 

KM July, 1995:

“Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance.” 

Oct 1, 1978 WT:

“Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment.” 

1874 they believed was when Christ's parousia began. 1878 he began to set up the Kingdom. And 1914 he would return in complete Kingdom power. Those were the beliefs before 1914 and immediately after 1914. But your contention is that they missed him in 1914 because they thought his parousia began in 1874. So would you be so bold as to answer these simple questions:

Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914? Did they miss him or not? After all, the answer to these questions are what your whole theory hangs upon. 

Here is the reference to Rutherford's talk in the Nov 1, 1922 WT:

"Since 1874 the King of glory has been present; and during that time he has conducted a harvest and has gathered unto himself the temple class. Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns. He has cleansed the lips of the temple class and sends them forth with the message of all messages. It is the message of the hour. It is incumbent upon those who are the Lord’s to declare it. The kingdom of heaven is at hand; the King reigns; Satan’s empire is falling; millions now living will never die.

Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is not in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign?

Then back to the field, O ye sonse of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. God forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom." 

[The opposer] wrote:

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years

3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.

4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.

5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

I have stated on previous occasions that Russell believed Christ's parousia began in 1874 but that his return in full kingdom power would come in 1914.

But [the opposer] tries to deceive us and lead us to a false conclusion. He wants his reader to believe that since:

A. They thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then

B. They could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914 and

C. They did not recognize that he took invisible power in 1914 until 1943 therefore

D. They could not have passed the test since they failed to recognize Jesus in 1914.

This is a deceitful falsehood as we have shown from the WT publications and the whole theory set forth to tear down the Witnesses is an outright lie.

As we look at each one of your statements made above by [the opposer] we can clearly see the deceit involved in his claims.

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

That is deceitful. They both acknowledged that Jesus returned in Kingdom power invisibly in 1914.

2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years

That is deceitful. They announced his return in kingdom power both before and immediately after 1914.

3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.

More deceit. Then how did they point to 1914 as the date for return of Jesus in his kingdom? And why did they continue to point to that date immediately after 1914 as the date that Christ came in Kingdom power?

4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.

More misinformation. They pointed to 1914 both before and immediately after as the date for Christ's return in Kingdom power.

5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

Absolute lie. They were the only ones faithfully awaiting his return in Kingdom power in 1914.

If you were honest you would make sure your book denotes the difference in what JWs believed at the time rather than trying to perpetrate that they believed his parousia began in 1874 thus they could not be watching for him in 1914.

That is a deceitful lie as I have shown from the WT publications and you know it to be so.

You have knowingly attempted to deceive. In essence you have said, "Is it really so that the WTS taught Jesus would return in 1914?" Then you proceed to deceitfully try to hide the truth of what JWs taught and that is nothing but a tactic of the father of the lie. And you have been caught and exposed.

Another brother wrote:

"Matthew 24:3 is speaking of his presence. It could also be accurately described as coming, but other scripture points to a presence and then a coming. 

Jesus presence is compared to the Days of Noah, which were spread out over an extended amount of time not one single event.

Also, how do you explain Psalms 110:1 and Acts 2:34 where Christ sits at his Father’s right hand and waits for Jehovah to make his enemies a "footstool".

But, I don’t think you’re [the opposer] being completely honest when presenting Christ's presence and coming as the same event when discussing JW beliefs. You may think they are the same event, your interpretation may be that and that is fine, but the JW don’t teach that. If you are saying that JW teach Jesus presence and his coming are the same event in your book then you have constructed a straw man argument that is intellectually dishonest.

Maybe I am misreading your intent or in my obtuseness just not getting your point, but you seem to be a good guy, and not one who would intentionally misrepresent JW teachings in this regard.” 

You are being deceitful in trying to claim that the Bible Students were not watching for Jesus in 1914 and therefore missed him. Quite deceitful.

It is like someone thinking the ice cream truck just turned down their block and so they go outside and tell all their friends the ice cream truck will be here in a minute and so they wait for it to get to their house. It does arrive just as you thought but then you find out it hadn't turned down your block at all when you thought but rather it came from another direction. Would it be proper to say you missed the ice cream truck because you thought it turned down your block when really it hadn't? Of course not. That would be a deceitful claim.

Everyone knows you told them the ice cream truck would be here in a minute. 

So just because now you say,'well I'm talking about Christ's parousia.'

A.(The Society) thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 then

B. They could not have been watching for Jesus’ PAROUSIA TO BEGIN in 1914 and

C. ACCORDING TO THE PROCLAIMERS BOOK they did not recognize JESUS’ INVISIBLE PRESENCE in 1914 until 1943, therefore

D. They could not have passed (Jesus’) test since they failed to recognize WHEN JESUS RETURNED TO BEGIN HIS “SECOND COMING” OR “INVISIBLE PRESENCE.”  

Big deal. It is a strawman argument. They weren't looking for his parousia but they were most definitely looking for Jesus and his Kingdom. They therefore did not miss it as you claim. After all, your whole point and basis for your [argument] is that they missed Jesus in 1914 but they didn't. Your argument is deceitful.

If you want to be honest then you should have told how they were indeed watching for Jesus to come in Kingdom power in 1914 and so they did not miss that event. It is a tactic often used by opposers and apostates in imitation of the first apostate/opposer, that is to take a little truth and season it with falsehoods. In reality, it is nothing but a lie and you have been exposed.

Why don't you just honestly admit that your book is based on false premises and misinformation? 

[The opposer] wrote:

3W,

You then asked me the very important question,“Were Russell and the Bible Students watching for Jesus in 1914?”

I feel your question needs to specify what they were waiting for in 1914.

Why? Why do you feel it is necessary to specify what they were waiting for in the question I asked? You certainly did not specify the difference in your book. But you want us to specify the difference NOW! You try to lead the reader to believe that JWs were not watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914 and that is clearly untrue.

The only question that needs to be asked is: Were Russell and the Bible students watching and waiting for Christ in 1914? After all, your claim is that they missed it. That is your whole basis for claiming that they could not pass the test. Did they miss Jesus in 1914 or not? You say they did. But they really didn't, did they? Not according to what the WT publications reveal for us. 

[The opposer] wrote:

I know they ‘fiddle around’ with another “coming”(a Third Coming?) that has nothing to do with Jesus’ return in 1914 to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence.” 

There is no "third coming". And his coming at Armageddon has everything to do with his parousia. It is the final part of the parousia. Christ parousia did not just happen in 1914 and end that same year. It is during Christ parousia which only began in 1914 that he accomplishes many things. The last of which is his coming to execute those that oppose him at Armageddon. 

I know of no other way to find out the answer to that question than to look back and see what the WT publications were saying about 1914 and whether they were expecting Jesus at that time or not. Lets see:

March 1880 WT:

‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914):

“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles."

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:

“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.”

Oct 1913 WT: 

"October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign."

Oct, 1913 WT: 

"At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

Were they watching and waiting for Jesus to return in Kingdom power in 1914? 

NO matter how much you guys try to convince others that JW were not waiting for something to happen in 1914 you are wrong. 1914 was a target date, and the 1876 date was more Barbour's date than Russell's. Expectations were not met but this is the same to me as the Disciples waiting for Jesus to finally ascend to the throne after his resurrection in Acts 1:7 only to be disappointed. Would they be rejected too because they knew something was going to go on, but their expectations were not met? 

...to argue that the JW weren’t waiting for Jesus on the premise that they taught the presence began in 1874 (Barbour's teaching that Russell adopted)and the return would happen in 1914 is not accurate. They were waiting, they just didn’t know exactly what would happen.

Kind of similar to Armageddon. We are waiting for it to happen one day, if it doesn't happen how we think does that mean we were not faithful and therefore Jesus would reject us? 

So do you explain to the reader the distinction between the presence and the return in your book? While you are correct, that JW teach the presence began Jesus second coming for those not familiar with JW Theology on this matter they could be misled.

Also, you are rejecting the WTS based on "spiritual food at the proper time". You say they couldn’t have because they weren’t waiting on Jesus presence. Yes they were, they knew something would happen, and had it pegged the "end of the gentile times" before it came about. I used an Armageddon comparison above in my previous post.

Also, to base your rejection around that whole point, and trying to disprove a invisible appointment is just as presumptuous as proving there was an invisible appointment.

I just don’t think there is enough evidence either way to prove the appointment at that particular time or disprove it. I think to me and most JW the core set of doctrines No Trinity, mortal soul, God's kingdom a real GOVT., all should preach, no hellfire etc..... are much more important than some improvable albeit convenient invisible action. 

The [opposer] wrote:

I could see why Jehovah never allowed Russell or Rutherford (according to the “Proclaimers” book) to know when his Son had returned to begin his Second Coming (assuming he did return in 1914)

Woefully misleading and deceitful. Jehovah allowed Russell to know over 30 years in advance that Christ was returning in Kingdom power in 1914. He and brother Rutherford both agreed thereafter that Christ did come in invisible kingdom power in 1914.

[The opposer] wrote:

How faithful or discreet could those men have been when it is realized the God kept both of them totally in the dark about such a “core teaching” as the Second Coming of his Son? Not very faithful or discreet I would think.

Again deceitfully misleading. He calls someone who pointed to 1914 as the time of trouble and the year that Christ would come in Kingdom power as 'totally in the dark'? Thereafter both men pointed out that Jesus had begun to rule invisibly in Kingdom power in 1914. Totally in the dark? Is that really an honest statement?

If anything the 'core teaching' is that Jesus came in invisible kingdom power in 1914 which both men recognized as did others in the organization. When examining the history of the organization it is a most ridiculous statement that could only be made by ones who have an agenda that transcends the truth.

[The opposer] would have been an excellent apostate in the first century. He could have used the same arguments about how the apostles expected Jesus to restore the kingdom right there on earth at that time and could have even said word for word: "How faithful or discreet could those men have been when it is realized the God kept all twelve of them totally in the dark about such a “core teaching” as the First Coming of his Son? Not very faithful or discreet I would think."

Then he could have added how they faithlessly and indiscreetly abandoned Jesus and then merely a few days later claimed to have been appointed and anointed as the faithful and discreet slave. 

Yes, as we know Christendom's view of 'the 2nd coming of Christ is totally different from the view of JWs and [the other brother] is correct when he says: "[The opposer] doesn’t present JW view of the Second coming correct in his book from what I gather."

Oct, 1913 WT:

"At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom. Referring to the last king of Israel, Zedekiah, we read, "Thou profane, and wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end; thus saith the Lord God, Remove the diadem and take off the crown;...I will overturn, overturn, overturn it; and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it to Him." (Ezekiel 21:25-27.) If this period of overturning be rightly understood to be 2,520 years, it would seem to END WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the SETTING UP OF HIS KINGDOM." 

As we know JWs believe that Christ's parousia is a considerable number of years and culminates when Jesus comes to execute judgment. [The opposer] has misrepresented the views of Russell and JWs as [the other brother] has duly noted. 

Were JWs Watching for Jesus in 1914?

March 1880 WT: 

‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”

Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914): 

“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles." 

October 15, 1913, Watch Tower:

“According to the best chronological reckoning of which we are capable, it is approximately that time—whether it be October, 1914, or later. Without dogmatizing, we are looking for certain events 1) The termination of the Gentile Times—Gentile supremacy in the world—and (2) For the inauguration of Messiah’s Kingdom in the world.” 

Oct 1913 WT:

“October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign....At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom....If this period of overturning be rightly understood to be 2,520 years, it would seem to END WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST and the SETTING UP OF HIS KINGDOM."

By the term 'second coming of Christ' you have told us that you are talking about Christ's parousia. The 'second coming' or parousia is not a one day or one year event as you seem to think. Therefore believing it had 'already happened' is in reality a misnomer unless we believe the parousia occurred and ended. You surely must know, that is not what we believe. It has not 'already happened'.

The start of the parousia began in 1914, but again it has not 'already happened'. It is happening and continues and will culminate in the final coming of Christ to execute judgment. So here in the year 2008, since we are still looking for that event to occur during the parousia, how could we possibly miss the parousia since we do not believe it has 'ALREADY HAPPENED'.(your incorrect words). 

[The opposer] wrote:

They were not waiting for his Second Coming in 1914 because they believe that event happened 40 years earlier.

Now we can see just how you have erred in your philosophy about Russell and his beliefs in the 'second coming' or rightly called parousia or presence. They did not believe that the parousia happened 40 years earlier as you state above. You are misinformed and your statement is misleading.

They believed that the parousia BEGAN 40 years earlier, not HAPPENED 40 years earlier as in "ALREADY HAPPENED"([The opposer’s] inaccurate words). They believed that the parousia of Christ would continue onward until 1914. So were they looking for Christ's parousia in 1914. Yes they were. They were looking for the continuation of that parousia. They did not miss Christ's parousia at all.

True they believed the parousia began before it actually did, but they by no means missed it. They well believed in Christ's presence in 1914. 

He previously stated:

"he (Jesus) would not have found them (JWs) watching in 1914 ...."

On he also admits that in 1914:

"They (JWs) were watching and waiting for Jesus to come and establish his own righteous government."

Quite a contradiction.

Also [the opposer]  alleges that Russell taught that the second coming of Christ or parousia had 'already happened' in 1874 and that JWs today teach that Christ's parousia 'ALREADY HAPPENED' in 1914 as if it happened and ended. That is not true is it? JWs teach that the parousia began in 1914 and continues on today. It has not 'ALREADY HAPPENED' has it? 

[Another brother] wrote:

No they did not miss the bus. Look at it this way.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1874? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1875? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1876? Yes.

...

...

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1913? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1914? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 1915? Yes.

...

...

Did they believe Jesus was present in 2006? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 2007? Yes.

Did they believe Jesus was present in 2008? Yes.

So exactly how did JW's miss Jesus' presence or parousia? 

JWs do not believe that Christ's 'second coming' or parousia or presence has already happened. He is here and his presence continues until he comes to execute judgment at Armageddon. 

[The opposer] wrote:

In Russell's case I know that you believe just as it says on the top of page 47 of the “Proclaimers” book:“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN (i.e.“already happened”) in 1874.”  

That is the misleading part. You add YOUR inaccurate wording to what Russell believed. He did not believe the presence had 'already happened'. He believed it had begun and was continuing on. In 1914 he did not miss Christ's presence since he believed Christ was indeed in his invisible presence in 1914. That is the facts. Not your false rendition and false words--"ALREADY HAPPENED".

Do you think it is honest to change the words and beliefs of Russell and then prove that belief that you have invented as wrong? Thats what you call a strawman. And that is what you have built.

[The opposer] wrote:

And according to the “Proclaimers” book the Society didn’t realize that Jesus’ invisible presence actually began in 1914 until 1943.

This statement is also misleading. They believed that in 1914 Jesus was invisibly present. They believed in 1914 that Jesus had taken his power and began ruling. Therefore they believed that Jesus began ruling in Kingdom power in his invisible presence in 1914.

Rutherford and Russell both believed that Jesus began ruling in invisible Kingdom power in 1914 in his parousia or presence. How could they have possibly missed it? 

Another brother wrote: 

3W has a point because the way the second coming is presented by [the opposer] is not entirely accurate. Don does not offer up or really explain in detail how JW consider the "second coming" or "second advent" into two phases.

1) The presence

2) The return

Many Christian denominations do not teach or understand the JW proposed two phase approach to Jesus Second coming. I really don’t think [the opposer] expands on that enough and he leaves the reader with the impression that the Bible Students were not waiting for Jesus in 1914. He bases his claim that Jesus rejected the WTS (a counter presumption IMHO) based on the fact they thought he had already come.

That is not correct. They thought his presence had begun in 1876 and would continue until his return in 1914. All the things they predicted would happen in 1914 were things that would have Jesus at the helm bringing those things to mankind ([The opposer] listed these at the beginning of his comments).

So on the premise that they were not waiting for Jesus and therefore would not follow his inspection is a false premise. The fact remains they were waiting on Jesus to do something. They changed what that something was no doubt, but no matter how you slice it that "something" they were waiting for Jesus to do was being expected in 1914. Therefore the reasoning behind [the opposer’s] premise that JW (or Bible Students) were not waiting for Jesus is wrong.

[The oppose] wrote:

Good morning [brother],

You asked,“Do you explain in your book the difference between the beginning of the coming, Jesus invisible presence and the culmination or end of this presence which would be his return at

Armageddon?’

No I don’t.

That is very interesting. [The opposer] admits that he purposely leaves out what JWs believed about the 'second coming' or parousia of Christ.

He tells us that JWs believed that it 'already happened' or that 'it happened 40 years' before 1914. This is simply not true is it? He does not think it important to inform his reader that JWs believe that Christ came in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia. At no point before 1914 or after 1914 did JWs ever believe that Christ's parousia had 'already happened' or 'happened 40 years earlier'.

Do you know, [opposer], that in 1914 JWs believed that Jesus was in his parousia or 2nd coming, STILL. How then did they miss him coming in kingdom power in 1914 at the time of his parousia or 2nd coming? That would be impossible.

This statement is then true: Jesus invisible parousia/presence in kingdom power began in 1914? JWs have preached that since 1914 and before, don't you agree? 

[The opposer] wrote:

"If anyone still cares, 3W and I have a 'difference of opinion.' Our difference began so long ago that I hope we are still talking about the same issue.

His position is that the Witnesses (Bible Students) were “watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914.” Several times he has asked me,“Were they watching and waiting for Jesus in 1914 – Yes or No?" But every time I say that the Witnesses were NOT watching or waiting for Jesus “TO BEGIN HIS SECOND COMING IN 1914,” he accuses me of saying that the Witnesses were not “watching for Jesus in 1914.” He always leaves the “to begin his Second Coming in 1914”(or 1874) part off of what I’m saying in my book. And then he accuses me of deliberately lying about what the Society teaches in order to deceive. " 

The reason I leave the part off when I quote you such as "to begin his Second Coming in 1914" is because YOU purposely leave it off YOURSELF when you come on these sites trying to mislead the unwary. For example, lets look at what you copy and paste on this and other sites and as you look please take note of the misleading words used by [the opposer] which I will capitalize.

 "As you probably already know, from 1876 until his death in 1916 Russell mistakenly taught that Jesus’ Second Coming OCCURRED in 1874. (I do not see the word began). But you may not know that according to the “Proclaimers” book the Society kept teaching that wrong date until 1943. But that fact means more then simply that it wasn’t true. It also means several other things…

 1) The Society’s first two presidents never knew when Jesus RETURNED. What are the chances that God would use such men in his “channel of communication” and then never communicate to them when his Son had RETURNED?

2) They not only NEVER KNEW HE RETURNED in 1914, they insisted that he returned in 1874. What are the chances that God would let his earthly channel misinform his people about the time of his Son’s return for seven decades?

3) From 1879 to 1914 their Watch Tower magazine was announcing that Jesus was invisibly present when he wasn’t.- i.e.“Herald of Christ’s Presence”

4) Since they believed that Jesus had RETURNED IN 1874 IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE NOT WATCHING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914. And yet, in Luke’s parallel account (12:37) Jesus said that they would be “happy” only if ‘on arriving (he) found them watching for his return.’ But HE WOULD NOT HAVE FOUND THEM WATCHING IN 1914 BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED HE HAD ALREADY ARRIVED (didn't see began in there anywhere) forty years earlier in 1874.

 5) Luke 12:36 says,“At (Jesus’) arriving and knocking they may at once open to him.” But if he arrived and began knocking in 1914 but THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE HIS ARRIVIAL UNTIL 1943, it means that he would have had to knock for twenty-nine years before they opened to him.

6) Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus HAD ALREADY RETURNED (didn't see began), it means that they were the only Christian religion that was NOT WATCHING OR WAITING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have been led to believe that they were the only religion that was watching for his return in that year.  

...

For example, they had not been faithful by waiting for Jesus to reveal the time of his return. And they had not been discreet when they announced the wrong date for 67 years. Since they were not waiting for his return in 1914 he would not have declared them “happy.” And I don’t picture Jesus appreciating the fact that he had to knock for 29 years BEFORE ACKNOWLEDGING HIS RETURN IN 1914." END OF QUOTE

As anyone can readily see the whole gist of the above words of [the opposer] is misleading. You are trying to run a scam and make persons who do not know better believe that Russell, Rutherford, JWs, Bible Students, did not believe Jesus RETURNED in 1914 because his RETURN had already happened/occurred (Opposer’s inaccurate words) in 1874 and they did not know Jesus RETURNED in 1914 until 1943.

Face it. You have been exposed as dishonest. What you go around writing is deceptive and you and everyone else know it. By your trying to NOW insert words into what you have written proves that you KNOW that you have been deceptive. If you had accurately and honestly written it in the first place there would be no need to NOW add words.

But ok, since you NOW want to qualify your words that is fine. RETURN ONLY MEANS 'BEGINNING OF CHRIST'S PAROUSIA' in your qualifying words and you NOW admit that you mean they were not looking for the 'beginning of Christ's presence in 1914' then you yourself have destroyed your own premise and your book.

Because you are NOW admitting that they WERE WATCHING AND WAITING for Christ in 1914 and they were the ONLY ONES. And you are admitting that Christ's parousia had not 'already happened' in 1874 but merely the 'beginning of it'. So you admit that Russell and Rutherford DID KNOW about the beginning of his parousia IN KINGDOM POWER in 1914 since he was present (ongoing event) when his coming in Kingdom power began in 1914.

And then you must surely admit that Jesus would be well pleased that they were the only ones watching and waiting for him to begin his parousia in Kingdom power in 1914. And although you said Jesus would not pronounce them happy, in reality you must NOW be saying that he would pronounce them happy since they were WAITING AND WATCHING for the beginning of his parousia/ presence in Kingdom power.

So who else could Jesus have recognized as his FDS? No one else was watching for the beginning of his parousia IN KINGDOM POWER except JWs.

If you know of another group, [Opposer], please let us know about them. You tried to say it was 7th Day Adventist and/or Christadelphians because someone else told you that and you did not bother to research it for yourself but that was shown to be an error. And you tried to misquote a WT publication just as you misquoted yourself but you were called out on that.

So who is this group besides JWs who were watching and waiting for the beginning of Christ's parousia IN KINGDOM POWER and teaching ALL these basic Bible truths such as no Trinity, no hellfire, God's name, Kingdom, Ransom, paradise, unity, no killing in war etc.? 

Here is another example of [the opposer’s] deceit that he pastes on websites. Never once does he qualify that by using the word return he means 'beginning of Christ's parousia/presence/second coming.

"The following assumes that Jesus returned in 1914 and that he did in fact examine what the Society had been teaching down till 1919.

1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.

2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years

3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.

4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.

5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914."

Deception to the max but it is good to see that no longer does [the opposer] stand behind these statements. And it is good to see that he is NOW admitting that he means 'beginning of second coming' when he says return. And he has shown us that he NOW believes all these statements can be reversed and be true if we are not narrowing the definition of 'return' as [the opposer] NOW does, but are instead using the word 'return' as what it generally means or to mean the beginning of Christ's parousia in Kingdom power.

1. Russell and Rutherford knew that Jesus returned in 1914. 
2. They discreetly announced the right date since 1914.  
3. They faithfully waited for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4. The Society opened immediately when Jesus knocked and acknowledged his return in 1914.
5. They were faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914. 

[The opposer] wrote:
Would you do me a big favor... Please answer these two questions:
1)Did Russell teach that Jesus returned in 1874 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?
2) Does the Society now teach that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)? 

I assume you will answer "Yes" to both questions.

I too answer "Yes" to both questions. 

I have answered those questions plenty of times and of course I answer yes. But again, that is not what you try to lead your readers to believe which is apparent by the way you have stated things.

Now would you answer these questions?

Are the following statements true?

1. Russell or Rutherford knew that Jesus returned in 1914.
2. They discreetly announced the right date since 1914 and even before.
3. They faithfully waited for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
4. The Society opened immediately when Jesus knocked and acknowledged his return in 1914.
5. They were faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.

And are the following statements false?

The Society’s first two presidents never knew when Jesus RETURNED.

THEY WERE NOT WATCHING FOR HIS RETURN IN 1914.

THEY DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE HIS ARRIVIAL UNTIL 1943

they were the only Christian religion that was NOT WATCHING OR WAITING FOR HIS

RETURN IN 1914.

they announced the wrong date for 67 years.

they were not waiting for his return in 1914 he would not have declared them “happy.”

he had to knock for 29 years BEFORE ACKNOWLEDGING HIS RETURN IN 1914 

[The opposer] wrote:

"Would you do me a big favor... Please answer these two questions:

1) Did Russell teach that Jesus returned in 1874 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?

2) Does the Society now teach that Jesus returned in 1914 to begin his Second Coming (invisible presence)?

I assume you will answer "Yes" to both questions.

I too answer "Yes" to both questions."

I stated: I have answered those questions plenty of times and of course I answer yes. But again, that is not what you try to lead your readers to believe which is apparent by the way you have stated things.

I would like to qualify that by stating that 'second coming' is not a correct characterization or translation of Christ's invisible parousia. Second coming implies that he came and it is finished as if the event happened in 1914 and is done. That is not the case at all as you well know. Using the term 'second coming' can cloud what JWs actually believe and that can also be a deceptive tactic.

11. The Scriptural Refining 

Dan 12:10: "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." 

Mal 3:2"“But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness."

As we see the claim is often made by opposers that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be Jehovah's organization directed by His holy spirit and His son because they have in the past made interpretations, pointed to certain dates, and taught teachings that were proven to be wrong or were later corrected. Jehovah's spirit is never wrong. Jesus is never wrong. Then how can it be that Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by Jehovah and Jesus?'Impossible!' opposers say.

But would anybody make the same argument about the seven congregations that John wrote letters to in the book of Revelation? Take a look at all their problems stated in the letters: 

"you have left the love you had at first....

you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba´laam,... to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication....

you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·la´us likewise...

you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel,... and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols....

I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead...

I have not found your deeds fully performed before my God....

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So, because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth...

you say: "I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all," but you do not know you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garments that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not become manifested, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes that you may see." 

Can't you just see [the opposer] standing there in the first century among the seven golden lampstands saying of the Christian congregation: 

"WRONG spiritual food at the WRONG time" thus they cannot be God's people.

And even as [the opposer] is speaking what happens?

Revelation 1:12 "... saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,...20 As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations."

And then [the opposer] says: Jesus how can you be here walking among these people that have these wrong teachings of Nicholaus and Jezebel and Balaam? 

According to the prophecy in Malachi, when Jesus came to examine the temple he would find that the temple class needed to be refined and cleansed. Notice Malachi 3:2, 

"For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness."

Question: Why would God's people need to be refined and cleansed? Surely God's organization would already be teaching all truths when Jesus arrived for inspection? While that is how some may reason that reasoning is not in harmony with the Bible prophecies. 

When Jesus arrived for inspection he found many flaws thus the need for refining. This is backed up by other scriptures as well. For example in Revelation, John is transferred into the 'Lord's day'(Rev 1:10) and it is during the Lord's day that he decribes the condition of the congregations in the seven letters. As the letters show, there was a need for changes in the congregation of Christ. Time and again he tells them that changes are needed and such changes need to be made before destruction comes. One example of this is Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."

So you see, to believe that God's chosen ones would have all things right when he inspected the spiritual temple is incorrect. The Bible clearly shows that he would have a congregation of people and that congregation or organization of people would go thru a needed refining and cleansing during the Lord's day.

Just because [the opposer] thinks that God's people should have all teachings correct from the gitgo doesn't make it so. His argument is not with JWs. JWs do not believe that God's people would have all things correct when Jesus returned to his temple.

So if he wants to argue with JWs about how we had some inaccurate teachings that we have had to change, you'll get no argument. We all agree. His argument is with Bible prophecy not with JWs. 

…Why would there be any need for refining and cleansing at all if there are no mistakes and no incorrect practices? Exactly what is it that God's people would need refining and cleansing for anyway?

Because it is a fact that Revelation tells us how the congregations would need refining and cleansing, even teaching and practicing the doctrines of Balaam, Nicholaus, and Jezebel, among other things. There was a need to get new garments (cleansing) and buy gold (refining).

12. Process to Refine Gold 

Another brother] made an excellent point when he said

"If someone is looking to mine and refine gold what are the steps?

1. First you must find some gold bearing material.

This requires you to take several samples and assay them. When the results come back you will of course choose the mine that has the most gold bearing material.

2. Mine the gold.

This requires a lot of effort. One must dig, pick, shovel, and dynamite to retrieve the raw material.

3. Refine the gold.

This requires many many steps which include grinding the material, smelting the material, putting the material in solution, and then smelting again, till eventually you have .99999 percent real gold.

If you started with pure gold, then there would be no need to refine. However, the first requirement is that your raw material contains some gold to begin with."

13. Change and Correction of Teachings in Harmony with Prophecy 

So Opposers or critics of Jehovah's Witnesses may feel inclined to make a long list of teachings that JWs have been wrong about or changed but what exactly have they really proven by doing this? 

They have proven that the Bible is being fulfilled and that JWs are being refined and cleansed just as prophesied. And they have proven that Jesus really must be walking in the midst of Jehovah's Witnesses because of the many changes made that have brought them more in harmony with the teachings of Jesus. And they have proven that God's holy spirit really is directing his organization of Jehovah's Witnesses because they have continuously discarded Babylonish teachings and practices as directed by God's spirit. This is what we should expect from God's organization since it was prophesied that God's congregation would indeed have problems and flaws that would need correcting and that his organization would humbly submit to the necessary refining and cleansing. 

In essence all the reasoning by critics and opposers about JWs having things wrong in the past are made invalid since the Bible clearly prophesied that when Jesus arrived and inspected his temple he would then refine and cleanse them because they needed to be refined and cleansed due to mistakes and wrong teachings. The seven letters to God's congregations in the Lord's day show that there would be problems that would need correcting. So digging up wrong statements by the WT fifty or a hundred years ago in hopes of discrediting JWs is really just a waste of time since the Bible prophecies are what count, not any human reasoning. Such reasoning by enemies of JWs is unscriptural. There is therefore no need to respond to past inaccurate teachings of JWs that are pointed out that have been corrected as part of the refining work done by Jesus to his organization. 

Every time we see a list of the past inaccurate teachings of JWs, we can be happy that Jehovah has seen to it that those teachings and practices have been discarded and that Jehovah does indeed have an organization on earth that he is directing and refining and cleansing. Thank you all for reminding us of how Jehovah takes care of his organization by correcting them. 

…And so where [the opposer] and chronies have made their mistake is that they failed to consider the prophecies. And in so doing they failed to see that their list of inaccuracies of JWs in days gone by, that they have indeed allowed Jehovah to correct, are only more proof that they are God's people rather than proving that they are not God's people. Not because of their mistakes and inaccurate teachings, but rather because they were willing to be corrected and refined and cleansed. NO other religion has been willing to allow God to refine them and discard the errors. 

…Really it should be just the opposite of what [the opposer] says. He should be saying: Once I came to realize what the Society taught from 1876 to 1919 and they made corrections of those inaccurate teachings, I was convinced even more so that they were God's organization. That is what the prophecies say. 

So basically what you are saying is you disagree with Bible prophecy that God's people will need a refining and cleansing in the time of the end. And you disagree with John and what he wrote in Revelation concerning the congregations of God in the Lord's day and how they would need to make some corrections. 

But I must tell you that if the inaccuracies taught from 1876 to 1919 were not corrected then you would indeed have a point. I think you will find that those people still exist today. They are called Russellites. 

…I do know that JWs do make corrections when they see they are wrong and I do know that the FDS has plainly admitted as the Sept 1, 1997 WT states

"15 Jehovah’s Witnesses have been eager to know when the day of Jehovah will occur. In their eagerness they have at times made attempts to estimate when it might come. But by so doing, they have failed, as did Jesus’ early disciples, to heed their Master’s caution that we “do not know when the appointed time is.”(Mark 13:32, 33) Ridiculers have mocked faithful Christians for their premature expectations.(2 Peter 3:3, 4) Nevertheless, Jehovah’s day will come, Peter affirms, according to His timetable." 

The Kingdom Proclaimers book page 71 states

"As a worldwide congregation, they have “the full assurance of their understanding.”(Col. 2:2) It is not that they feel that they understand every detail of Jehovah’s purposes. They keep searching the Scriptures with an open mind, and they keep learning. But what they learn does not change their basic viewpoint regarding the fundamental truths of God’s Word. They are ‘fully assured’ of these foundation truths; they have recognized and accepted them for many decades now. What they learn does, however, continually improve their understanding of how certain scriptures fit into the overall pattern of Bible truth and how they can more fully apply the counsel of God’s Word in their own lives." 

So I fail to see what point you are trying to make. The publishers of WT publications do not claim infalibility nor inspiration and they freely admit their failings. That is exactly how they allow Jesus to cleanse and refine them. Something totally foreign to other religions who are still stuck on the most basic of false doctrines: hellfire, trinity, God's name of no importance, God's kingdom only in your heart, earth destroyed, Jesus the god/man sacrifice, disunity, war killing, and so on. 

The prophecies are clear. God's people would be cleansed and refined in the Lord's day. And opposers have no way of refuting those prophecies. Just look around. Which religion has corrected and changed their inaccurate teachings or practices as they recognize them to be so? What religious organization has allowed such cleansing and refining just as prophesied? I'll give you a hint: Opposers like [you] are very fond of listing their past inaccuracies and we do appreciate that because it helps us to see who God is refining and cleansing.

14. Refining of Individuals or Groups of People? 

Congratulations. [a different opposer] has proven that individuals can be tested and refined. Of this we never had a doubt. 

Let’s examine her reasoning:

1. Individuals are spoken of as being tested and refined.
2. Therefore God does not refine and cleanse God’s people as an organization.
3. Therefore the prophecies cannot apply to God’s organization today.

That is plain illogical reasoning. It is bogus and has no merit whatsoever. Just because individuals are spoken of as being tested and refined then somehow the prophecies cannot apply to God’s people as a whole or as an organization. Why? Who made that rule? All we have to do is examine the scriptures and we can immediately see that the prophecies apply to God’s people, his organization. And there are indeed several of them proving this very point.

Zech 13: 9 "And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine THEM as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say,‘It is my PEOPLE,’ and it, in its turn, will say,‘Jehovah is my God.’”

The terms 'them' and 'people' leave no doubt that the prophecy applies to God’s people as a group, his organization. And notice that those being refined are also called ‘it’. Would individuals be called ‘it’? Of course not. That makes no sense whatsoever. But God’s people as an organization would appropriately be called ‘it’.

“It (the third part or God’s organization), for its part, will call upon my name.” Isn’t it uncanny that God’s organization is spoken of as calling upon His name? What organization on earth today are known for calling upon God’s name? And what is God’s response to those who call upon His name? “ I will say,‘It (the organization) is my PEOPLE,’ and it, in its turn, will say,‘Jehovah is my God.’” Isn’t it just absolutely amazing that God’s organization is made up of the ones who call upon His name and say,‘JEHOVAH is my God.’?

Now let’s go back and look at Malachi 3 again. After the refining and cleansing is prophecied notice what happens?

“16 At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name. 17 “And they will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said,“at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him. 18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”” 

Wow, isn’t it amazing that again it is the ones ‘thinking upon God’s name’ who He calls His. 17 “And THEY will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said, “at the day when I am producing a SPECIAL PROPERTY.” By using the pronoun ‘they’ and calling them a ‘special property’ there can be no doubt that the prophecy is not merely talking about individuals being refined. Clearly, without a doubt, it is talking about God’s special people, His organization.

“18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.””

The distinction is oh so very clear. It is Jehovah’s Witnesses who think and call upon God’s name and who declare that name worldwide and no one else.

Of course then we also have the letters to the 7 congregations. The 7 congregations required correction and cleansing, not just as individuals but as congregations themselves, as an organization. As a matter of fact, in chapter 3 verse 18 it is said 

“I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire that you may become rich, and white outer garmentS…” 

The fact that garments is plural and the fact that the gold is to be symbolically bought from Christ shows that the congregations or organization of congregations, not merely individuals, are in need of both cleansing and refining by Jesus in the Lord’s Day.

15. Wrong Expectations/False Prophecies

However, comments from [opposers] got me to thinking about all those times JW’s expected one thing and got another. Or about all those dates that came and went and with nothing to show for it but “New Light”. Then I began to reflect back on the first century Christian congregation and the apostles. There were many things that they expected and got something totally different. For instance they expected Jesus to begin his kingship on earth and that they would serve under him. And yet they got something totally different. They also expected that kingdom to come in their lifetime. Yet again unrealized expectations. There was even a rumor spread out among the brothers that the kingdom would come before John’s death. And who started the rumor?

John 21: 21 Accordingly, when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus:“Lord, what will this [man do]?” 22 Jesus said to him:“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but:“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”

 That’s right, none other than Jesus himself. Can you imagine the disappointment some of the brothers had on the day John died? No doubt many were stumbled. Especially those who did not have real appreciation for the truth, and for the love, and unity among the brothers and sisters. I’m sure there were many who thought the kingdom would be established within that generation.

But then it occurred to me, on several occasions Jesus insinuated that his return would come within their lifetime. For instance “The Kingdom of the Heavens has drawn near”. Or even this scripture:

Acts 1:11 and they said:“Men of Gal´i•lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

So why did Jesus let this rumor perpetuate? Maybe because it was by DESIGN. Not that Jesus is trying to mislead anyone but rather he allows it to happen. Jesus knows only too well the hearts of men. If Jesus had come right out and said,“The Kingdom will come in 2000 years, so go therefore and make disciples” I don’t believe that would have created a sense of urgency.

This would leave one to conclude that believing (and even teaching) the kingdom will come before its time is something that is acceptable to Jehovah, dare I say even allowable. So by believing the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1942, 1975, 1984, had the net effect of giving the witnesses of Jehovah a desire to spread the word and make even more disciples. It also serves as a test for those who do not have real love for the truth and become stumbled because of all the unrealized expectations.

The Dec 15, 1962 WT states quite candidly and explicitly:

"The care of God’s organization today is not in the hands of men who are inspired by God. They can make mistakes as any imperfect man can. Even the apostle Peter, who unquestionably had God’s spirit, made mistakes. On one occasion he denied Jesus Christ. On another he had to be rebuked by Paul for “not walking straight according to the truth of the good news.”(Gal. 2:14) God’s spirit inspired him to write Scripture, but it did not prevent him from being a free moral agent capable of making mistakes when he was not under inspiration. His mistake in the matter of applying Christian doctrine in his relationship with non-Jews does not argue that he did not have God’s spirit at all. The same is true today.

The men in Jehovah’s organization who prepare spiritual instruction for the Lord’s “sheep” diligently study the Scriptures to learn what God has put there for the instruction and guidance of his people. They make no claim of inspiration—only that they are Bible students. Since their comments on the Scriptures are not inspired, they can at times make mistakes. Does this make them false prophets? Not at all! A false prophet does not correct himself. He persists in proclaiming a wrong view even when he knows that it is wrong. But these students of God’s Word correct misunderstandings when they discover them. They are interested in the truth, not in self-justification. Their mistakes do not mean God’s spirit does not operate upon them; it does, just as it did upon Peter despite his mistakes.

Over the years the anointed remnant have published many things through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that they have learned from their ceaseless searching of God’s Word. Some of these things have made Jehovah’s witnesses distinctive from the religious organizations of Christendom that refuse to correct mistaken views, and they have proved to be basic Scriptural truths. Some others have, by further study, been revealed to be mistaken conclusions due to an unclear view of certain scriptures. As understanding of these scriptures became clearer the mistakes were corrected. Such corrections show their honesty and love for truth.

This sincere desire to search out accurate understanding of the things in God’s Word and this willingness to make changes when Scriptural evidence accumulates to indicate a need for them should instill confidence in the organization. It assures the Lord’s “sheep” that the organization will never knowingly misinform them.

God’s spirit operates upon his dedicated servants today, not to inspire them, but to move them gently in the direction of increased understanding. It permits them to make mistakes as they grow in understanding of God’s Word, but in time it helps them to see their mistakes, which they gladly correct. In this manner they progress along the path of the righteous ones, with the light of Scriptural understanding steadily getting “lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”(Prov. 4:18 This progress in Scriptural knowledge might be likened to an overcast sky that is gradually breaking up. As the openings between the clouds grow, more and more light comes through. Sometimes a truth is seen but then is obscured by a misunderstanding, just as a passing cloud momentarily obscures some rays of the sun. Later this truth returns in greater clarity when the misunderstanding is removed. God’s spirit is evident upon the organization from the progress it is making along the path of Scriptural truth."

16. Honesty and Openness about Past Mistakes

The following quotes are from the book, “Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom,” published in 1993. The abbreviation for the book in the WT CD library is JV.

Page 201:

"For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was God’s stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods.(Isa. 19:19) But Jehovah’s Witnesses have abandoned the idea that an Egyptian pyramid has anything to do with true worship.(See “Watchtower” issues of November 15 and December 1, 1928"

 Page 76:

Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book “Salvation,” published in 1939, explains:“The Hebrew words ‘Beth Sarim’ mean ‘House of the Princes’; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth.”

[Footnote]

At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of this system of things and would serve as “princes in all the earth,” in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16. This view was adjusted in 1950, when further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.—See “The Watchtower,” November 1, 1950, pages 414-17.

Page 141-2:

The Bible Students were well aware of the many prophecies of restoration that were delivered to ancient Israel by God’s prophets.(Jer. 30:18; 31:8-10; Amos 9:14, 15; Rom. 11:25, 26) Down till 1932, they understood these to apply specifically to the natural Jews. Thus, they believed that God would show Israel favor again, gradually restoring the Jews to Palestine, opening their eyes to the truth regarding Jesus as Ransomer and Messianic King, and using them as an agency for extending blessings to all nations. With this understanding, Brother Russell spoke to large Jewish audiences in New York as well as in Europe on the subject “Zionism in Prophecy,” and Brother Rutherford, in 1925, wrote the book Comfort for the Jews.

Page 47:

Barbour and Russell jointly published Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World. This 196-page book discussed the subjects of restitution and Biblical time prophecies....It presented the view that Jesus Christ’s invisible presence dated from the autumn of 1874.

Page 133:

This was influenced by the belief that the seventh millennium of human history had begun in 1873 and that a period of divine disfavor (of equal length to a former period considered to be one of favor) upon natural Israel would end in 1878. The chronology was flawed because of relying on an inaccurate rendering of Acts 13:20 in the King James Version, belief that there was a transcription error at 1 Kings 6:1, and failure to take into account Biblical synchronisms in the dating of reigns of the kings of Judah and of Israel.

Page 632 footnotes:

Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.(37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878 for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end.

Page 635:

In The Bible Students Monthly (Volume VI, No. 1, published early in 1914), Brother Russell wrote:“If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year—1914. What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the lease of power to the Gentiles. Our expectation, true or false, is that there will be wonderful manifestations of Divine judgments against all unrighteousness, and that this will mean the breaking up of many institutions of the present time, if not all.” He emphasized that he did not expect the “end of the world” in 1914 and that the earth abides forever, but that the present order of things, of which Satan is ruler, is to pass away."

Page 138-9:

By 1914, the faithful pre-Christian servants of God had not been resurrected on earth as princely representatives of the Messianic King, as had been expected, nor had the remaining ones of the “little flock” joined Christ in the heavenly Kingdom in that year....

However, at that time the Bible Students felt that the setting up of the Kingdom, its full establishment in heaven, would not take place until the final members of Christ’s bride were glorified. A real milestone was reached, therefore, in 1925, when The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article “Birth of the Nation.” It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born—established—in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth...

Page 632:

In the lecture “Millions Now Living Will Never Die,” delivered by J. F. Rutherford on March 21, 1920, at the Hippodrome in New York City, attention was directed to the year 1925. On what basis was it thought to be significant? In a booklet published in that same year, 1920, it was pointed out that if 70 full Jubilees were calculated from what was understood to be the date when Israel entered the Promised Land (instead of starting after the last typical Jubilee before the Babylonian exile and then counting to the beginning of the Jubilee year at the end of the 50th cycle), this could point to the year 1925. On the basis of what was said there, many hoped that perhaps the remaining ones of the little flock would receive their heavenly reward by 1925. This year also was associated with expectations for resurrection of faithful pre-Christian servants of God with a view to their serving on earth as princely representatives of the heavenly Kingdom. If that really occurred, it would mean that mankind had entered an era in which death would cease to be master, and millions then living could have the hope of never dying off the earth. What a happy prospect! Though mistaken, they eagerly shared it with others.

 Page 633:

This later led to the idea—sometimes stated as a possibility, sometimes more firmly—that since the seventh millennium of human history would begin in 1975, events associated with the beginning of Christ’s Millennial Reign might start to take place then.

Did the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses on these matters prove to be correct? They certainly did not err in believing that God would without fail do what he had promised. But some of their time calculations and the expectations that they associated with these gave rise to serious disappointments.

 Page 142-3:

The very first issue of the Watch Tower alluded to Matthew 24:45-47 when it stated that the aim of the publishers of that magazine was to be alert to events in connection with Christ’s presence and to give spiritual “meat in due season” to the household of faith. But the editor of the magazine was not himself claiming to be the faithful and discreet slave, or the “faithful and wise servant”(according to the rendering of the King James Version).

Thus, in the October-November 1881 issue of the magazine, C. T. Russell stated: “We believe that every member of this body of Christ is engaged in the blessed work, either directly or indirectly, of giving meat in due season to the household of faith.‘Who then is that faithful and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household,’ to give them meat in due season? Is it not that ‘little flock’ of consecrated servants who are faithfully carrying out their consecration vows—the body of Christ—and is not the whole body individually and collectively, giving the meat in due [s]eason to the household of faith—the great company of believers? Blessed is that servant (the whole body of Christ) whom his Lord when he has come (Gr. elthon) shall find so doing. ‘Verily, I say unto you, that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.’”

Over a decade later, however, Brother Russell’s wife publicly expressed the idea that Russell himself was the faithful and wise servant. The view that she voiced concerning the identity of the ‘faithful servant’ came to be generally held by the Bible Students for some 30 years. Brother Russell did not reject their view, but he personally avoided making such an application of the text, emphasizing his opposition to the idea of a clergy class commissioned to teach God’s Word in contrast to a lay class that was not thus commissioned. The understanding expressed by Brother Russell in 1881 that the faithful and wise servant was in reality a collective servant, made up of all the members of the spirit-anointed body of Christ on earth, was reaffirmed in The Watch Tower of February 15, 1927.—Compare Isaiah 43:10.

Page 629-30:

Doctrinal Views in Need of Refinement

Jehovah’s Witnesses freely acknowledge that their understanding of God’s purpose has undergone many adjustments over the years. The fact that knowledge of God’s purpose is progressive means that there must be change. It is not that God’s purpose changes, but the enlightenment that he continuously grants to his servants calls for adjustments in their viewpoint.

...

As might be expected, when changes have required the setting aside of formerly cherished views, that has been a test for some. Furthermore, not all adjustments in understanding have come simply, in one step. Because of imperfection, there is at times a tendency to go to one extreme or another before the correct position is discerned. This may take time. Some who are inclined to be critical have stumbled over this.

More on the FDS page 626:

Clearing Up the Identity of the “Faithful and Wise Servant”

Many who were sifted out at that time clung to the view that a single individual, Charles Taze Russell, was the “faithful and wise servant” foretold by Jesus at Matthew 24:45-47 (KJ), which servant would distribute spiritual food to the household of faith. Particularly following his death, The Watch Tower itself set forth this view for a number of years. In view of the prominent role that Brother Russell had played, it appeared to the Bible Students of that time that this was the case. He did not personally promote the idea, but he did acknowledge the apparent reasonableness of the arguments of those who favored it. He also emphasized, however, that whoever the Lord might use in such a role must be humble as well as zealous to bring glory to the Master, and that if the one chosen by the Lord failed, he would be replaced by another.

However, as the light of truth progressively shone even more brightly after Brother Russell’s death, and as the preaching that Jesus had foretold became even more extensive, it became evident that the “faithful and wise servant”(KJ), or “faithful and discreet slave”(NW), had not passed off the scene when Brother Russell died. In 1881, Brother Russell himself had expressed the view that that “servant” was made up of the entire body of faithful spirit-anointed Christians. He saw it as being a collective servant, a class of persons who were united in doing God’s will.(Compare Isaiah 43:10.) This understanding was reaffirmed by the Bible Students in 1927. Jehovah’s Witnesses today recognize the Watchtower magazine and kindred publications to be the ones used by the faithful and discreet slave to dispense spiritual food. They do not claim that this slave class is infallible, but they do view it as the one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things.

Dec 15, 1962 WT:

Over the years the anointed remnant have published many things through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society that they have learned from their ceaseless searching of God’s Word. Some of these things have made Jehovah’s witnesses distinctive from the religious organizations of Christendom that refuse to correct mistaken views, and they have proved to be basic Scriptural truths. Some others have, by further study, been revealed to be mistaken conclusions due to an unclear view of certain scriptures. As understanding of these scriptures became clearer the mistakes were corrected. Such corrections show their honesty and love for truth.

17. Intentionally Led Into Error/Blaming God?

God's people have often times had wrong expectations about a matter and had to be corrected. Those wrong expectations and later corrections have served as a test for God's people. There are indeed Bible examples and we have listed a few of them.

But there was no mistake on God's part nor has the WT publications ever tried to blame Jehovah or Jesus for their mistakes as [some opposers] seems to be saying.

…I see no reason to think that Jehovah intentionally leads his people into error. I have never seen that claim in a WT publication. I am sure that Jehovah allows his people to make mistakes. And I am sure that he corrects them, thus refining and cleansing them. But the WT has never laid any blame on Jehovah for their mistakes.

1 Samuel 16:13 "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers: and the Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on David FROM THAT DAY FORWARD. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah."

That scripture just has to be wrong. Was David spirit directed when he was watching Bathsheba from his rooftop? How about when he committed adultery with her? The Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on David from that day forward? What? I guess the spirit got it wrong on the day David committed adultery and had Bathsheba's husband murdered and the days before that when he was lusting over her.

That sort of reminds me of the faithful and discreet slave that Jesus is using today. Would it be proper to say of that slave when anointed: "the Spirit of Yahweh came mightily on the slave from that day forward." But what about their erroneous teachings that they later had to correct? NO way the spirit of Jehovah could have been on them!

And yet, that is what the scriptures said of David. And yet the scriptures did say that God's people in the Lord's day would undergo and cleansing and refining. Hmmmmm. Could it just be so that the scriptures and prophecies are correct? Do I believe the scriptures or the apostates reasonings? Let me think.

…Yes it is a great theory that [the opposer] teaches. Too bad it doesn't coincide with Bible prophecy and is therefore bogus reasoning. Especially does he contradict Rev 2-3.

Jesus himself showed that the 7 congregations or God's organization in the Lord's day would have many problems even holding to the teachings of Balaam and Nicholaus. And yet he continued to walk among these 7 golden lampstands, the 7 congregations, God's organization. And he made available for them new garments and refined gold. JWs allowed themselves to be clothed with those garments and bought that refined gold, thus allowing Jesus to cleanse and refine them.

It is only the sect of [the opposer] that teaches that JWs believe that Jehovah has led them into error. Not a teaching of JWs and not in the WT publications.

And no one is 'forced' to accept the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. If a person doesn't believe what JWs teach they do not have to become one and they are free to leave if they decide they don't agree with them. If a person believes the FDS is not among JWs then they may bow out at any point. But the fact is that even the majority of JWs who are dfed for one reason or another still believe that JWs have the truth and want to return when they get their life straight. I wonder why that is?

…Never has the WT blamed God nor claimed that. Note this from the July 1, 1979 WT:

"GUIDANCE IN OUR DAY

14 When we look at what has been published by Jehovah’s organization through the pages of The Watchtower and other publications for the past century, we find wholesome spiritual food in abundance. Early in this period, basic Bible truths were made clear, and they remain clear until this day. Our viewpoint on hell, Trinity, purgatory, the soul, where the dead are, the ransom, the resurrection, earth’s destiny, the Kingdom and other key doctrines has undergone very little change during 100 years. The truth has always been truth, though, at times, our understanding of it has required adjustment.—Compare John 16:13.

15 ... Jehovah’s Witnesses from earliest times in the past century have understood that they must be willing to modify and correct their views of doctrine, practice and organizational procedure when it became apparent that Jehovah’s spirit was directing them toward such adjustments. As acknowledged by Bryan Wilson in the magazine New Society, Jehovah’s Witnesses have “always maintained that continued study of the Bible might lead to fuller knowledge, and on previous occasions errors in prophetic interpretation have been admitted.”

16 Perhaps the area in which it truly requires willingness to readjust is the field of Bible prophecy....

17 ... during these “last days,” have erroneous views about this system’s end or telos (Greek) been held in advance by some of Jehovah’s servants? Yes, they have...."

18. Forced Unity?

At last, we agree on what I have quoted that you said above. Too bad it has not united the churches of Christendom today. They kill their fellow Jesus lover because they are a different race or nationality. They all believe different things about Jesus and who he was and what he taught. There is no unity.

But the real Jesus does unite. The only begotten son of God unites his people. The Jesus who gave his life as a perfect man, not a god-man, has a united people who spread the truth about his sacrifice worldwide. The real true Jesus who is not part of some mystic God-head has a people exposing this false pagan doctrine for what it truly is, a teaching of demons. The Jesus who taught love for fellow man has a united people who does not slaughter one another in war. The Jesus who is King of God's Kingdom has subjects who tell others how this heavenly government will restore mankind to perfection in paradise. The Jesus who made known God's name and said he would continue to make it known has a united people making that Name known worldwide. The Jesus that does not burn souls in hellfire for all eternity, has a united people freed from such cruel and sadistic teachings.

To sum it up, the real Jesus is preached only by Jehovah's Witnesses. Hey you yourself said it.

"Believing Jesus unites us.
Recieving Jesus unites us.
Following Jesus unites us, and this only by the direct power of the Holy Spirit."

 And that’s what JWs are..........united. Much to the chagrin of [opposers] who apparently prefers that the true religion should be disunited and somehow that makes sense???? Excellent point indeed.

Maybe this is what Paul meant when he said at 1 Cor 1:10

 "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

 Naw, nevermind. [the opposer] says disunity is better. Who is Paul compared to this [opposer]?

19. World Magazine Controversy 

So [the opposer] claims that because the article in the World Magazine is quoted then the WTS is therefore trying to deceive its readers and paint a new history. Nevermind that the very next chapter beginning on the very next page tells of the disappointments the Bible Students had as their expectations for 1914 and what they thought would happen were unfulfilled. Lets just disregard that all together and claim that the WTS is trying to hide their history as if the book ended right there on page 60.

Now to the article in the World Magazine. The article is being quoted by the WTS to prove one thing and one thing only: That the Bible Students did indeed point to the year of 1914 as a marked year. We have WT sources making that claim of course. But ones like [the opposer] might be inclined to say, "Hey, just because the WTS said that the Bible Students pointed to 1914 as a marked year, don't make it so. Where is the evidence outside the WT publications?" The World Magazine thus provides evidence apart from the WT publications that JWs did indeed say, "Look out for 1914".

Now did everything they expected happen? Why yes, it did..... Oh wait, that’s what [the opposer] tries to make us think that the WT publications say. In reality, the WT publications openly admit that what Russell and the Bible Students expected did not happen entirely. As I said, the fact is that the very next chapter beginning on the very next page after the quote from the World Magazine tells of those expectations that were unfulfilled.

20. Forced Belief in Untruths? 

[The opposer] wrote:

But in 1986 their generation of 1914 teaching was not a TRUE TEACHING OF THE BIBLE nor was it a SCRIPTURAL BELIEF. And yet Jehovah’s Witnesses were “required” to believe it (until November of 1995) or be disfellowshipped. Why?

I assume 3D would explain that disfellowshipping in such cases is both necessary and Scriptural for a couple of reasons:

I do not know of one person disfellowshipped for not believing the generation belief. I would venture to say that there has never been one person disfellowshipped for simply not believing the generation beliefs. And I am not going out on a limb. Why? Because once a person begins to question the FDS and begins to think they know more than the one Jesus has appointed, it does not end with merely one belief such as the generation teaching. It leads to persons trying to cause division in the congregation. [The opposer] is a perfect example of that.

So for example, if I do not believe the current teaching about 'this generation' will I be dfed? No. I have discussed such things with elders and others and never once been threatened with disfellowshipping. Why? Because I realize that I do not know the definitive answer to the meaning. And I take the attitude that Jehovah is using the FDS to lead us and he will reveal the truth thru them as he has every other accurate teaching: Trinity, hellfire, kingdom, paradise, importance of God's name, etc. etc.

[The opposer] wrote:

The April 1, 1986 Watchtower also says that Jehovah’s Witnesses are “required”(i.e.‘forced’) to accept all the Society's “unique beliefs”– even the ones that are not true - or be disfellowshipped.

Since when does the word required mean forced?

No one is 'forced' to become a JW. No one is 'forced' to remain a JW. If they don't want to meet the requirements then don't be a JW. And if they want to leave then leave. Of course there are always consequences to face for our actions.

Do you think the first century congregation had no requirements to be a Christian? Notice some of them:

1. Be obedient to those taking the lead among you.
2. Go therefore and make disciples.
3. Remove the wicked man from among you who is a fornicator, reviler, extortioner, etc etc.
4. Speak in agreement and be fitly united in the same mind and the same line of thought.
5. Abstain from fornication, things sacrificed to idols, and from blood.

There were many more requirements.

3 John 9,10:“I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.”

Were there requirements in the first century organization to remain a part of it? Most definitely. The requirements are set forth in the Bible. 

You made the point that “Once a person begins to question the FDS and begins to think they know more than the one Jesus has appointed, it does not end with merely one belief such as the generation teaching.” Your point might be valid only IF Jesus did in fact give the Society the above appointment in 1919.

No, not "only IF Jesus did in fact give the Society the above appointment in 1919." But rather, if the FDS is found only among JWs.

You see here we are again with that same old false premise that JWs had to be appointed in 1919 or the FDS is not among them. There was no appointment of the FDS in 1919 as the FDS.

21. Ice Cream Truck 

Little Charley told everyone that he believed he heard the song of the ice cream truck. He told them that he believed it had just turned down their block and would be at their houses in 5 minutes and so he went out to meet the ice cream truck. But the ice cream truck had not turned down the block as he had thought. He had misplaced the song of the ice cream truck. Instead it came from the other end of the block but it still arrived 5 minutes later as little Charley had said.

 When little Donny finally came outside the ice cream truck was long gone. He went around telling all his friends that little Charley had missed the ice cream truck because he thought it turned down their block from the other direction when it really didn't.

Little Donny came up behind little Charley chanting, "Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

Little Charley turned around to expose his chocolate covered fudgcical grin. Little Donny paused for a moment. He knew that little Charley had been watching for the ice cream truck all along but he would not now admit it. He would be a laughing stock to all his friends.

Little Donny ran off hollering as loud as he could, ""Nya nya nya nya nya nyaaaaaaa, Charley missed the ice cream truck!"

22. Deceptive Misconceptions About the Beliefs of JWs: Summation

1. "Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914."

15, 1915 WT:

"We believe that the time for the setting up of the Kingdom was on September 21, 1914."

Cedar Point Ohio Convention, September 8, 1922, Brother Rutherford stated:

"... Since 1914 the King of glory has taken his power and reigns."

HARP OF GOD, 1921, PAGE 244:

"The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914...the Lord Jesus Christ,...stood up and began to exercise his power."

2. "Since in 1914 they were the only religion that believed that Jesus had already returned, it means that they were the only Christian religion that was not watching or waiting for his return in 1914."

WT Oct, 1913:

"October,1914--will mark the closing of the Times of the Gentiles, and the beginning of the Messianic Reign...At the end of the Gentile Times Messiah will appear and set up His Kingdom."

3. "The Society had waited until 1950 (or so) to restore Jehovah’s Name to the Hebrew Scriptures in their NWT."

Another misleading mischaracterization. The NWT did not even exist until the 1950s. How could JWs possibly restore the name in their NWT Bible that didn't even exist?

. ".... the MOST IMPORTANT Scripture in their (WT) theology....Matthew 24:45-47"

Nov 1, 1993 WT:

"Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING--WHO IS GOD? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the MOST IMPORTANT ONE?"

5. "And therefore I have concluded that if Jesus did not give them that authority at THAT time, they would not have that authority at THIS time."

But does his reasoning coincide with scriptures and JW beliefs?

Mark 13:34 "It is like a man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the AUTHORITY to his slaves..."

Matt 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master APPOINTED over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

Matt 28:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations..."

2 Cor 5:20 The anointed fds are "ambassadors substituting for Christ". Sure seems like there would be a lot of authority in being ambassadors of Jesus in his absence.

The authority to provide the food at the proper time, to act as ambassadors for Christ, and to preach the good news of the Kingdom was given to the FDS long before 1919.

6. "My Problem: I have not been able to find that prophecy. If you know where Russell had foretold the beginning of a war that would break out in Europe in 1914 please let me know where you found it. I would then apologize for suggesting the Governing Body has not told the truth in this instance."

From The Battle of Armageddon published in 1889, 25 years before 1914, page 543:

"In previous chapters we have noted the work of preparation for the conflict of this evil day; — the organizing, equipping and drilling of immense armies, the building of great navies, the invention of new and wonderful engines of war, the making of new and powerful explosives, and the draining of the national resources in every land for purposes of military equipment; and we have noted the mutterings of the angry nations as they all stand armed to the teeth, scowling upon one another."

 Battle of Armageddon published in 1897:

After telling of the "EXTRAVAGANT PREPARATIONS FOR WAR" that the nations are making and about their "MODERN IMPLEMENTS OF WAR" on page 142-3 it is stated further in this book, The Battle of Armageddon:

"The prophecy of Joel (3:9-11) is surely being fulfilled in the wonderful preparations for war now being made among the nations. Prophetically, he voiced the sentiments of these times, saying, "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles: Prepare war..."

Is not this the world-wide proclamation of the present time? Are not the mighty and the weak all nerving themselves for the coming conflict? Is not even the professed church of Christ marshalling the young boys and inspiring them with the spirit of war? Are not the men who otherwise would be following the plow and pruning the trees forging and handling instead the weapons of war? And are not the nations all assembling their mighty hosts and draining their financial resources beyond the powers of long endurance, in order thus to prepare for the exigencies of war — the great trouble which they see fast approaching?" end of quote.

7. "Their literature simply refuses to use the word “false” in connection with anything the Society has ever taught no matter how false it was."

Time is at Hand, 1916 edition. Opening forward:

"Our mistake was evidently not in respect to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles; we drew a FALSE conclusion, however, not authorized by the Word of the Lord."

9-1-83 WT:

"Although the Bible Students had elders and deacons (ministerial servants), FALSE religious ideas still prevailed in some respects."

5-1-55 WT:

"Though Jehovah’s people from the 1870’s to 1918 had gradually changed over much of their basic religious thinking from the corrupt teachings of the Babylonish religion of apostate nominal churches, yet to a great degree they still were held in restraint by tainted bonds of FALSE conceptions and practices inherited from the pagan traditions adopted by Christendom."

IP book, page 380:

"In 1919, however, things changed. Jehovah brought his people out of captivity. They began to reject the FALSE teachings that had earlier corrupted their worship. As a result, they enjoyed a healing."

8. "I suspect that the first thing Jesus would notice is that there is not a single person connected with the Watchtower Society who was waiting for his return because they believe he already returned 93 years ago."

Proclaimers book page 716:

"The time is rapidly approaching when Christ’s presence in Kingdom power will be made clearly manifest to all humankind."

KM July, 1995:

"Today we stand at the threshold of Jesus’ arrival in the dual role of deliverer and executioner. As watchful Christians realizing the urgency of the times, we do not just fold our arms and wait for deliverance."

Oct 1, 1978 WT:

 "Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment."

 "I know they ‘fiddle around’ with another “coming”(a Third Coming?) that has nothing to do with Jesus’ return in 1914 to begin his “Second Coming” or “invisible presence.”"

There no "third coming" advocated in the WT publications. And his coming at Armageddon has everything to do with his parousia. It is the final part of the parousia. Christ parousia did not just happen in 1914 and end that same year. It is during Christ parousia which only began in 1914 that he accomplishes many things. The last of which is his coming to execute those that oppose him at Armageddon.

10. "“Barbour succeeded in convincing Russell that Christ’s invisible presence had BEGUN (i.e.“already happened”) in 1874.”"

adds the inaccurate wording to what Russell believed. He did not believe the presence had 'already happened'. He believed it had begun and was continuing on. In 1914 he did not miss Christ's presence since he believed Christ was indeed in his invisible presence in 1914. That is the facts. Not your false rendition and false words--"ALREADY HAPPENED".

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